J, K, L, N-Frame ? A little history please ...

Good point, Mike. Heck, it's not just a difference in frame size between .357 Jframes and all the other calibers in J., Newer J frames in all calibers except .357 are a slightly longer frame than older Js. Starting in, I think it was '97 or '98 when they beefed up the alloy frame Js for +P, Smith lengthened the J frame by a tenth of an inch. Confusing? Not really. You have a designated frame size that's been available now for half a century. Changes will occur.

Another interesting and little-known tidbit is that Smith actually designates a different letter for stainless guns in the same frame size. For example, I believe the stainless J frame's official designation is the "E" frame. Could be wrong on this on. The "E" might be the designation for the stailess K frame. SmithNut, you know which is which?
 
If memory serves me, the so called S frame is actually the prefix assigned to the serial number of the N frame guns produced after the end of WWII. The S signifies a design change in the rebound slide hammer block and the S was used to identify that change.

I have heard these guns refered to as S series and S frames.

Ken

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No man is above the law and no man is below it,nor do we ask any mans permission when we require him to obey it.
 
"Stainless" is for non structural boat parts and cheap eating and cutting tools.

Sam...my 686 and 696 both just tried to bite me.
 
Texaken, you are corrct, sir. The "S" added to the Nframe serial numbers during the mid '40s was done so to indicate the addition of a new hammer block safety. And lots of folks refer to these guns as "S frames". But it has never been an official designation by Smith&Wesson. It is simply something that caught on with people looking at the serial numbers. I mean, the K frames had a "K" as part of the serial number, so the "S" must mean any gun with that in the serial number must be an "S frame", right?. Nope. It's a misnomer, plain and simple.
 
Here's the poop on the S serial number.

As others have noted, there is no such critter as an S-frame.

The S was a serial number prefix. Interestingly, it was first applied not to the N-frame, but to the WW II production .380/200 and .38 Spl. revolvers being turned out by S&W.

After the war, the S number continued to be used on a variety of K-frames.

The S number wasn't applied to the N-frame until 1947, and that numbering schema continued until 1970.

As for the introduction of the N-frame, it was in 1908. It was known alternately as the "New Century," the "Hand Ejector Model of 1908," the "Triple Lock," and the ".44 Military."

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
Mike,
You are correct, the E,F,H and G frames are the internal factory designations for the stainless counterparts of the J,K,L and N frames. Obviously since it is a "material" designation as opposed to "size" designation your original posting was correct about the different frame sizes. Just wanted to add this cause you run into folks using these designations from time to time (including S&W on some models, ala "FComp" versus "KComp").
On the subject of "S" frames, they do not exist. Some folks seem to think so, because of the "S" prefix on early postwar N frames. BUT don't forget, there were also "S" serial number prefixes in early postwar K frames as well.
........SmithNut
 
Yup, nowhere in any reference I own, nor in any Smith&Wesson litererature, catalogue, brochure, advertisement, etc., etc., is the term "S Frame" seen. Thanks, 'Nut.
 
I agree on the lack of a "S" frame, If so my .380/200 is a V frame due to the prefix in the sn. :) All of the 19s,57s and such I have had have the k or n as a prefix.
 
Ok, tell me how the Mod. 13 is different than the Mod. 10 with the bull barrel and sight rib?

J frame stands for "Junior"

K like in, 'K, this one's bigger, right?

L is for Largo

N means "nasty" as in those nasty 44 mags.

-- Or maybe not . . .
 
Wow. A veritable cornucopia of frame information. I've often wished that Smithnut spent more time here on TFL when a S&W question was posed. But I was pleasant surprised to see the vast knowledge that Mike has of them as well. Between these two and parabellum it looks like all the bases are covered. Thanks guys for correcting me on the S designation. I've learend something which always makes for a good day. ;)

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Gunslinger

I was promised a Shortycicle and I want a Shortycicle!
 
Ok, that's a lot to digest, but I like the fact it's all laid out right here for us! What do I call my 1941 Lend-Lease, US Property, Aussie Broad Arrowed, .38 S&W, since it doesn't have the V-prefix, or the "new" internal lockwork safety? (Heard a story about that, a US sailor dropped his on the hammer, and died from the resulting discharge...) I'm assuming it's called a Model 1905 Hand Ejector, or would it be a Military & Police, or even a Model 11? Not that it would change the value of the gun, when I got it, it looked and functioned like the Aussies used it to drive tent stakes, so I "fixed it up" a wee bit.

http://www.geocities.com/gew98.geo/ppcpropointrightplonk2.jpg
 
That's easy. It's obviously a "V" frame.

running and ducking for cover before Mike, Smithnut and Parabellum see this.... :p

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Gunslinger

I was promised a Shortycicle and I want a Shortycicle!
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dimitri:
Ok, tell me how the Mod. 13 is different than the Mod. 10 with the bull barrel and sight rib?
[/quote]

Dimitri,

There are dimension differences at a number of points on the frame, metal thicknesses, size of cuts, etc., designed to give the Magnum K-frames a little more beef in order to better handle full-bore ammo.

The differences are not big, but they're there. They have also varied as the gun go through engineering changes.



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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gewehr98:
Ok, that's a lot to digest, but I like the fact it's all laid out right here for us! What do I call my 1941 Lend-Lease, US Property, Aussie Broad Arrowed, .38 S&W, since it doesn't have the V-prefix, or the "new" internal lockwork safety? (Heard a story about that, a US sailor dropped his on the hammer, and died from the resulting discharge...) I'm assuming it's called a Model 1905 Hand Ejector, or would it be a Military & Police, or even a Model 11? [/quote]

G98,

Your .380/200 is designed around the Model of 1905, Fourth Change.

It was apparently called by S&W the Model K-200, but I don't have solid confirmation on that. The British apparently called it S&W Pistol No. 2.

Even after the new lock work was introduced, the pistol retained that nomenclature.

The problems with the old-style hammer block were well known even as far back as World War I, but it was felt that it could be dealt with very effectively through cleaning.

In that guise it would become the Model 11, but I just prefer to call ALL of the .380/200s exactly that, the S&W .380/200.



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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gunslinger:
That's easy. It's obviously a "V" frame.

running and ducking for cover before Mike, Smithnut and Parabellum see this.... :p[/quote]

THAT'S IT! I'M CALLING THE MAU MAU RIGHT NOW!



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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
OH CARP! I just discovered I made a mistake in my initial posting... :(

I said that the .32-20 Winchester cartridge was chambered in the N-frame.

That is NOT the case. It was chambered in the K-frame.

Sigh.

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
S&W historian Roy Jinks, in an article published in the "American Rifleman" in July, 1986, beginning on page 41, refers to "factory letter designations assigned ... 1900-1930." At that time, these letters represented *models*. The use of letters to denote *frame sizes* came later.

A = .35 Automatic
B = .32 Regulation Police
D = .38 Double Action
E = .38 Regulation Police
G = .32 Safety Hammerless
I = .32 Hand Ejector
K = .38 Military & Police
L = .44 Double Action
M = .22 Hand Ejector (the original Ladysmith)
N = .44 Hand Ejector
P = .38 Double Action Perfected
R = .32 Double Action
S = .38 Single Action
T = .22 Perfected Single Shot
V = .22/.32 Heavy Frame Target
Y = .38 Safety Hammerless

Jinks goes on to say, "the assigning of a different letter to each model became obsolete by the 1930s, as the factory produced more variations than letters in our alphabet. Therefore, S&W needed a new system." The new system boiled the letter designations down to four by World War II: M, I, K, and N. These letters now no longer referred to individual models, but rather to frame sizes, although of course the latter were based upon the former. IOW, N = .44 Hand Ejector model, evolved into N = S&W's large frame size covering several models.

There's a lot more. But this summary at least explains the origin of the letters designating the current K and N frame sizes. (The J and L frames were of course later developments, as noted in previous posts.)

HTH. :)



[This message has been edited by jimmy (edited October 07, 2000).]
 
Jimmy,

Hum.....

Hum.....

I'm going to have to go digging through my AR back issues and find this article...

Because, I suddenly have a theory...

Savage Arms used to have a system by which you could order their rifles via letters through telegraph. They adopted the letters, which early on, weren't seen as distinctive "models," so that people ordering wouldn't have to spend a bundle on telegraph fees...

I'm wondering if the S&W system evolved for the same reason?

It seems pretty reasonable.

I'm going to have to get out my Jinks books and do a little research.

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
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