J, K, L, N-Frame ? A little history please ...
- Thread starter FUD
- Start date
Hey FUD; In response to your excellent post,
the L-framed Smith & Wesson's were the first
firearms for that firms inventory to wear the
fully lugged barrel. It can easily be distinguished from the K-framed revolver's,
by this very aspect. It is my understanding of S&W history that in 1935 the ".357 Magnum"
was introduced to the shooting world; henceforth, they needed a strong framed six
shooter to handle such increase in pressure.
Therefore the birth of the now famous "N-frame". It is my favorite of all. Being
a fan of the late, great Mr. Elmer Keith; I
guess it's only fitting?
I believe the I and the O framed firearms
belong to Mr. Samuel Colt's design.
Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member
the L-framed Smith & Wesson's were the first
firearms for that firms inventory to wear the
fully lugged barrel. It can easily be distinguished from the K-framed revolver's,
by this very aspect. It is my understanding of S&W history that in 1935 the ".357 Magnum"
was introduced to the shooting world; henceforth, they needed a strong framed six
shooter to handle such increase in pressure.
Therefore the birth of the now famous "N-frame". It is my favorite of all. Being
a fan of the late, great Mr. Elmer Keith; I
guess it's only fitting?
I believe the I and the O framed firearms
belong to Mr. Samuel Colt's design.
Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member
Gunslinger
Moderator
Actually what is now the J frame was once called the I frame. The modern N frame was once called the S frame and the K frame has always been the K frame until they added a full lug and called it the L frame. Simply, eh? 
------------------
Gunslinger
I was promised a Shortycicle and I want a Shortycicle!
------------------
Gunslinger
I was promised a Shortycicle and I want a Shortycicle!
And there is the I frame, similar to the J frame in size (small). I frame has flat hammer spring and J frame uses coil hammer spring seated in a partition in the mid grip area.
4" .32long I frame nestled under 6" 19-3 (short lug) looks like mother and daughter, so similar except for gross size difference.
There is an M frame also but I have not had my hands on one.
The 19th century top breaks used numbers to designate frame sizes..1, 2, 3 etc. When the hand ejector (solid frame) models started in the later 19th century, letters were used to designate the frame differences. Hence I, J, K, L, M, N. These frame designators were for internal factory use and weren't actualy stamped on the gun with the serial number till later.
Any corrections gleefully accepted.
L frame is slightly larger and heavier than K frame, allowing for about a tenth of an inch larger diameter cylinder (either more meat or more rounds). L frame has slightly larger area where bbl screws in, thus allowing thicker bbl and more meat in the forcing cone area. Due to the K and L differences; hand, hammer etc will not interchange. The two sizes are so close tho that often the same holster will work well on both. Speed loaders must be dedicated to work properly tho.
Sam...only a little bit older than the DC3 and the .357mag
[This message has been edited by C.R.Sam (edited October 06, 2000).]
4" .32long I frame nestled under 6" 19-3 (short lug) looks like mother and daughter, so similar except for gross size difference.
There is an M frame also but I have not had my hands on one.
The 19th century top breaks used numbers to designate frame sizes..1, 2, 3 etc. When the hand ejector (solid frame) models started in the later 19th century, letters were used to designate the frame differences. Hence I, J, K, L, M, N. These frame designators were for internal factory use and weren't actualy stamped on the gun with the serial number till later.
Any corrections gleefully accepted.
L frame is slightly larger and heavier than K frame, allowing for about a tenth of an inch larger diameter cylinder (either more meat or more rounds). L frame has slightly larger area where bbl screws in, thus allowing thicker bbl and more meat in the forcing cone area. Due to the K and L differences; hand, hammer etc will not interchange. The two sizes are so close tho that often the same holster will work well on both. Speed loaders must be dedicated to work properly tho.
Sam...only a little bit older than the DC3 and the .357mag
[This message has been edited by C.R.Sam (edited October 06, 2000).]
Mike Irwin
Staff
OK, here it is to the best of my knowledge.
The frame sizes were originally used only by the factory in the assembly shops. The frame sizes didn't really become common knowledge or use in outside until after WW II. Prior to that the guns were really known by names, not frame sizes or model numbers.
Why they started where they did, instead of at A, B, C, etc., I don't know. I've never really seen an explanation for it.
The letters were adopted because while the Hand Ejectors were in production the break tops were also still being produced. There was an overlap of about 30 years.
The break tops were known by their frame size numbers: the 1 1/2 were the small frame .22 & .32s, the No. 2s were mid-size .38s, and the No. 3s were the large calibers, such as the .45 S&W, .44 American and Russian, etc.
Here's the rundown on S&W letter frame sizes:
I frame - The original hand ejector frame, introduced around 1896. These were chambered in .22, .32 Long (a VERY few were chambered in .32 S&W, and bring SERIOUS collector prices), and .38 S&W.
An improved I-frame introduced S&W's first use of coil springs only a few years before the introduction of the J-frame.
J-frame - After WW II, the company wanted to chamber the .38 Spl. cartridge in a small gun suitable for police undercover use. The I-frame was too small to take this chambering, so the J-frame was introduced in the 1950s.
The J-frame has been chambered in .22, .32 Long, .32 H&R Mag., .38 Spl., and in a slightly enlarged version in the past few years, .357 Mag.
K-frame - The "classic" S&W .38 revolver, introduced around 1899, and over the years chambered in .22, .32 Long & Mag., .38, .357, and a very few test guns for the Army in .30 Carbine.
L-frame - As police began to transition to the .357 Mag. for both training and carry (as opposed to training with .38 Spl. and carrying the .357 Mag.) the drawbacks of the K-frame became apparent in that they would, given a stead diet of Mag. ammo, begin to shoot loose.
The L-frame was introduced in the early 1980s to counteract that by beefing up the frame size and weight of the gun, but retaining the K-frames grip dimensions. Grips are interchangable between the K and L frames. The L-frame is almost exclusively .357 Mag. territory, although they have been produced in .38 Spl. on contract (mainly for South American police forces). The 696 in .44 Spl. is also an L-frame.
M-frame - The smallest Hand Ejector ever built, and in production from 1902 to about 1922. These were the original "LadySmith" branded guns. They were 7-shot .22s, and came in three separate models. All three are HIGHLY collectible, and bring serious prices.
N-frame - The largest of S&W's revolvers. These have been chambered in .22 Jet/Long Rifle, .38 Spl., .38-44 Heavy Duty (the original +P .38 Spl. round), .357 Mag., .41 Mag., .44 Mag., .45 ACP, .45 Long Colt, .45 S&W, .44 Russian, .44 Special, .32-20, and a few dozen test guns in .30 Carbine for the Army.
As for how do you tell the difference just by looking at the guns, it takes time to develop an "eye" for seeing the size difference. I've been working with S&W revolvers for so long that I can tell right off what frame size a gun is, even without picking it up.
There is no other single feature that will allow you to conclusively tell the frame size every time, because they can be very similar.
Example - Virtually all L-frames have a full-underlug barrel. But, so too did many later production J and N frames.
NOTE: The calibers listed above are by no means exhaustive (except for the M-frame, which only came in .22 LR).
Other chamberings were also included, especially on foreign military contract guns (i.e., N-frames during WW I in .455 for the British and Canadians, and K-frames during WW II in .380/200 for Britain and other Commonwealth nations).
There have also been some pretty rare chamberings made for experimental purposes, such as the .30 Carbine that I listed above.
------------------
Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
[This message has been edited by Mike Irwin (edited October 06, 2000).]
The frame sizes were originally used only by the factory in the assembly shops. The frame sizes didn't really become common knowledge or use in outside until after WW II. Prior to that the guns were really known by names, not frame sizes or model numbers.
Why they started where they did, instead of at A, B, C, etc., I don't know. I've never really seen an explanation for it.
The letters were adopted because while the Hand Ejectors were in production the break tops were also still being produced. There was an overlap of about 30 years.
The break tops were known by their frame size numbers: the 1 1/2 were the small frame .22 & .32s, the No. 2s were mid-size .38s, and the No. 3s were the large calibers, such as the .45 S&W, .44 American and Russian, etc.
Here's the rundown on S&W letter frame sizes:
I frame - The original hand ejector frame, introduced around 1896. These were chambered in .22, .32 Long (a VERY few were chambered in .32 S&W, and bring SERIOUS collector prices), and .38 S&W.
An improved I-frame introduced S&W's first use of coil springs only a few years before the introduction of the J-frame.
J-frame - After WW II, the company wanted to chamber the .38 Spl. cartridge in a small gun suitable for police undercover use. The I-frame was too small to take this chambering, so the J-frame was introduced in the 1950s.
The J-frame has been chambered in .22, .32 Long, .32 H&R Mag., .38 Spl., and in a slightly enlarged version in the past few years, .357 Mag.
K-frame - The "classic" S&W .38 revolver, introduced around 1899, and over the years chambered in .22, .32 Long & Mag., .38, .357, and a very few test guns for the Army in .30 Carbine.
L-frame - As police began to transition to the .357 Mag. for both training and carry (as opposed to training with .38 Spl. and carrying the .357 Mag.) the drawbacks of the K-frame became apparent in that they would, given a stead diet of Mag. ammo, begin to shoot loose.
The L-frame was introduced in the early 1980s to counteract that by beefing up the frame size and weight of the gun, but retaining the K-frames grip dimensions. Grips are interchangable between the K and L frames. The L-frame is almost exclusively .357 Mag. territory, although they have been produced in .38 Spl. on contract (mainly for South American police forces). The 696 in .44 Spl. is also an L-frame.
M-frame - The smallest Hand Ejector ever built, and in production from 1902 to about 1922. These were the original "LadySmith" branded guns. They were 7-shot .22s, and came in three separate models. All three are HIGHLY collectible, and bring serious prices.
N-frame - The largest of S&W's revolvers. These have been chambered in .22 Jet/Long Rifle, .38 Spl., .38-44 Heavy Duty (the original +P .38 Spl. round), .357 Mag., .41 Mag., .44 Mag., .45 ACP, .45 Long Colt, .45 S&W, .44 Russian, .44 Special, .32-20, and a few dozen test guns in .30 Carbine for the Army.
As for how do you tell the difference just by looking at the guns, it takes time to develop an "eye" for seeing the size difference. I've been working with S&W revolvers for so long that I can tell right off what frame size a gun is, even without picking it up.
There is no other single feature that will allow you to conclusively tell the frame size every time, because they can be very similar.
Example - Virtually all L-frames have a full-underlug barrel. But, so too did many later production J and N frames.
NOTE: The calibers listed above are by no means exhaustive (except for the M-frame, which only came in .22 LR).
Other chamberings were also included, especially on foreign military contract guns (i.e., N-frames during WW I in .455 for the British and Canadians, and K-frames during WW II in .380/200 for Britain and other Commonwealth nations).
There have also been some pretty rare chamberings made for experimental purposes, such as the .30 Carbine that I listed above.
------------------
Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
[This message has been edited by Mike Irwin (edited October 06, 2000).]
Mike Irwin
Staff
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ala Dan:
Hey FUD; In response to your excellent post,
the L-framed Smith & Wesson's were the first
firearms for that firms inventory to wear the
fully lugged barrel. It can easily be distinguished from the K-framed revolver's,
by this very aspect. It is my understanding of S&W history that in 1935 the ".357 Magnum"
was introduced to the shooting world; henceforth, they needed a strong framed six
shooter to handle such increase in pressure.
Therefore the birth of the now famous "N-frame". It is my favorite of all. Being
a fan of the late, great Mr. Elmer Keith; I
guess it's only fitting?
I believe the I and the O framed firearms
belong to Mr. Samuel Colt's design.
Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member[/quote]
Dan,
Unfortunatly, S&W has produced J, K, and N frame guns with the full underlug barrel, so that is not an easy way to determine.
Also, the N-frame predates the introduction of the .357 Magnum by almost 30 years. The N-frame served as the platform for the S&W Model 1917 military revolvers chambered in .45 ACP.
Finally, the I-frame is an S&W frame size. I don't know about Colt, as I have no interest in Colts.
------------------
Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
Hey FUD; In response to your excellent post,
the L-framed Smith & Wesson's were the first
firearms for that firms inventory to wear the
fully lugged barrel. It can easily be distinguished from the K-framed revolver's,
by this very aspect. It is my understanding of S&W history that in 1935 the ".357 Magnum"
was introduced to the shooting world; henceforth, they needed a strong framed six
shooter to handle such increase in pressure.
Therefore the birth of the now famous "N-frame". It is my favorite of all. Being
a fan of the late, great Mr. Elmer Keith; I
guess it's only fitting?
I believe the I and the O framed firearms
belong to Mr. Samuel Colt's design.
Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member[/quote]
Dan,
Unfortunatly, S&W has produced J, K, and N frame guns with the full underlug barrel, so that is not an easy way to determine.
Also, the N-frame predates the introduction of the .357 Magnum by almost 30 years. The N-frame served as the platform for the S&W Model 1917 military revolvers chambered in .45 ACP.
Finally, the I-frame is an S&W frame size. I don't know about Colt, as I have no interest in Colts.
------------------
Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
Mike Irwin
Staff
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gunslinger:
Actually what is now the J frame was once called the I frame. The modern N frame was once called the S frame and the K frame has always been the K frame until they added a full lug and called it the L frame. Simply, eh?
[/quote]
Gunslinger,
Well, no, not really. The I and J frames are significantly different in size. The J frame is capable of taking the .38 Spl. cartridge, whereas the I frame's frame is too short lengthwise to do so.
The K-frame and the L-frame are also dimensionally different in critical areas, so it was not just a case of slapping a lugged barrel on the K and calling it a day. The K and L share the same grip frame dimensions, but that's about it.
As for the S-frame... Huh?
I've been mucking with S&W revolvers for nearly 20 years and have NEVER heard of an S-frame. To the best of my recollection, Jinks makes absolutely no mention of an "S" frame in either of his books.
------------------
Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
[This message has been edited by Mike Irwin (edited October 06, 2000).]
Actually what is now the J frame was once called the I frame. The modern N frame was once called the S frame and the K frame has always been the K frame until they added a full lug and called it the L frame. Simply, eh?
[/quote]
Gunslinger,
Well, no, not really. The I and J frames are significantly different in size. The J frame is capable of taking the .38 Spl. cartridge, whereas the I frame's frame is too short lengthwise to do so.
The K-frame and the L-frame are also dimensionally different in critical areas, so it was not just a case of slapping a lugged barrel on the K and calling it a day. The K and L share the same grip frame dimensions, but that's about it.
As for the S-frame... Huh?
I've been mucking with S&W revolvers for nearly 20 years and have NEVER heard of an S-frame. To the best of my recollection, Jinks makes absolutely no mention of an "S" frame in either of his books.
------------------
Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
[This message has been edited by Mike Irwin (edited October 06, 2000).]
Mike Irwin
Staff
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C.R.Sam:
And there is the I frame, similar to the J frame in size (small). I frame has flat hammer spring and J frame uses coil hammer spring seated in a partition in the mid grip area.
[/quote]
Sam,
The I-frame improved actually introduced the first use of the coiled mainspring in an S&W gun. These were produced starting sometime in the 1940s, predating the introduction of the J-frame by several years.
------------------
Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
And there is the I frame, similar to the J frame in size (small). I frame has flat hammer spring and J frame uses coil hammer spring seated in a partition in the mid grip area.
[/quote]
Sam,
The I-frame improved actually introduced the first use of the coiled mainspring in an S&W gun. These were produced starting sometime in the 1940s, predating the introduction of the J-frame by several years.
------------------
Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
Mike....you are quick and good. With the speed of your posts, it looks like you are working from an accurate memory bank.
Do you have an M frame? Does it use coil or flat spring?
I knew about the late Is havin coil but spaced it.
The way this thread is goin, it will soon be a keeper for reference.
Sam..standin in the hall wonderin if I was goin to or comin from the bathroom.
Do you have an M frame? Does it use coil or flat spring?
I knew about the late Is havin coil but spaced it.
The way this thread is goin, it will soon be a keeper for reference.
Sam..standin in the hall wonderin if I was goin to or comin from the bathroom.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Sam,
All from memory. I've been interested in S&W revolvers for many years. I'm also friends with one of the authors of "The Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson." I'm trying to convince him that he needs to use me as the editor for the next edition.
As for the M-frame, it used a flat main spring.
There were three distinct M-frame variations, the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd models.
The 1st Model was the only one that had the standard thumb latch used to unlock the cylinder. The later models dropped this (in large part because the parts were so small that it was a brass plated bitch to work with), and went with a knob and pin assembly on the front ejector rod lug.
These were the only S&W Hand Ejectors to use something other than the thumb latch assembly to unlock the cylinder.
I wish I had an M-frame, but they are expensive little cusses.
A run of the mill M-frame, in decent shape, will bring four figures.
A perfect M-frame with 6" barrel and target sights, in box, will bring closer to five figures.
------------------
Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
All from memory. I've been interested in S&W revolvers for many years. I'm also friends with one of the authors of "The Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson." I'm trying to convince him that he needs to use me as the editor for the next edition.
As for the M-frame, it used a flat main spring.
There were three distinct M-frame variations, the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd models.
The 1st Model was the only one that had the standard thumb latch used to unlock the cylinder. The later models dropped this (in large part because the parts were so small that it was a brass plated bitch to work with), and went with a knob and pin assembly on the front ejector rod lug.
These were the only S&W Hand Ejectors to use something other than the thumb latch assembly to unlock the cylinder.
I wish I had an M-frame, but they are expensive little cusses.
A run of the mill M-frame, in decent shape, will bring four figures.
A perfect M-frame with 6" barrel and target sights, in box, will bring closer to five figures.
------------------
Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
Mike Irwin
Staff
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SmithNut:
Mike,
You forgot the E,F, H and G frames.
......SmithNut[/quote]
Smith,
those are the frame designations for the stainless steel guns, right?
Didn't forget them, actually. Stainless (souless steel, actually) doesn't register with me.
Those frame designations, though, aren't in common usage at the moment. Most people look at a 696 or a 686 and say L frame.
------------------
Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
[This message has been edited by Mike Irwin (edited October 06, 2000).]
Mike,
You forgot the E,F, H and G frames.
......SmithNut[/quote]
Smith,
those are the frame designations for the stainless steel guns, right?
Didn't forget them, actually. Stainless (souless steel, actually) doesn't register with me.
Those frame designations, though, aren't in common usage at the moment. Most people look at a 696 or a 686 and say L frame.
------------------
Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
[This message has been edited by Mike Irwin (edited October 06, 2000).]
Mike Irwin
Staff
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C.R.Sam:
Mike....do you know if there were any Spanish knock offs of the early M frames? Like some of the bigger ones that even copied the logo.
Sam...beware the man who knows his wheelguns, he can probably dot your eyes.[/quote]
Sam,
to the best of my knowledge, there are/were no Spanish copies of the M-frame. I've also never seen a Spanish copy of the I-frame, just K- and N-frames.
------------------
Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
Mike....do you know if there were any Spanish knock offs of the early M frames? Like some of the bigger ones that even copied the logo.
Sam...beware the man who knows his wheelguns, he can probably dot your eyes.[/quote]
Sam,
to the best of my knowledge, there are/were no Spanish copies of the M-frame. I've also never seen a Spanish copy of the I-frame, just K- and N-frames.
------------------
Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
parabellum
New member
I frame and J frame are not the same size. The I frame is smaller.
There never was an S frame. N frame has always been N frame since Smith started the letter system for frame size. This has come up before. That answer is straight from Roy Jinks himself. Ask Roy about an "S frame" and he'll ask you what you're talking about.
There never was an S frame. N frame has always been N frame since Smith started the letter system for frame size. This has come up before. That answer is straight from Roy Jinks himself. Ask Roy about an "S frame" and he'll ask you what you're talking about.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Another important note about S&W's frame sizes...
The frame-size designation is by no means absolute.
Two models (such as the 10 and the 13) can be called K-frames, as the 10 and 13 are, but there are numerous dimensional differences.
The same is true of the J-frame .38s and the J-frame .357s.
In both cases, the .357 Mag. versions are beefed up in critical areas to allow the gun to better stand the force of the Mag. ammo.
It is better to think of the frame designations as "families" or "groups" that encompass a variety of individuals.
------------------
Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
The frame-size designation is by no means absolute.
Two models (such as the 10 and the 13) can be called K-frames, as the 10 and 13 are, but there are numerous dimensional differences.
The same is true of the J-frame .38s and the J-frame .357s.
In both cases, the .357 Mag. versions are beefed up in critical areas to allow the gun to better stand the force of the Mag. ammo.
It is better to think of the frame designations as "families" or "groups" that encompass a variety of individuals.
------------------
Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.