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Glenn E. Meyer

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Watching the talking heads this morning, esp.
GOP, I would suggest that the following issues are done deals:

1. Hi-caps - the ban will never be removed.
Imports will be banned.

2. Mandatory gun locks sold with guns. Companies are doing it and it will be law soon.

3. Internal gun locks - Taurus does it, Steyr,
Bond Arms - just a matter of time before law

4. No private sales of guns at gun shows without a NICS check. Have a table where you go and pay a fee for it to be done or something like that.

5. If NICS works, then allow hi-cap sales with such a check and resale could be through a check also.

Before we have the line in the sand howls of rage, we have to be realistic.

Thus, if these things are going to become law - is there something one can get for them.
If we just let it happen then we just lose.
I repeat that we can fight holding actions but eventually they will pass.

Now ask for with these measures, things that will increase gun ownership and successful gun use in self-defense situations. I believe that this is the only argument that has any surface validity outside of the choir. Old Charlton babbling about the 2nd has no power to the people we have to convince.

1. If national trigger lock laws are passed, also pass at the same time, national CCW reciprocity. This will increase defensive gun use and make our case. It will never be passed on its own.

2. If gun sales are now all NICS at shows, then a law saying that with NICS, there will no state pre-emption of the ability of a private citizen to buy a firearm for possession in their own home or selfowned place of business.

This would be a dramatic change for major metropolitian areas like DC, NY, etc.

Many folks in those areas would leap at the chance to buy legal firearms, take classes and
increase the power base for the next battles.

You have to buy my argument of the inevitable
nature of some new laws. You have to go with in order like some martial arts to direct some force in our direction. I propose that we do this to increase firearms ownership and use
in the domain that counts - personal arms for defense. Duckies and skeet and shooting deer once a year don't cut it.

These are concessions but with a hook in them to increase our abilities. Otherwise we just lose.

We should also crush SW as an example to the others.
 
Dear Glen,
I dont like those bills even a little bit; it churns my stomach to even consider that they might become law.

However,and in spite of my thoughts
on the subject, we could well get stuck with all of the above.

If we are going to get it stuck on us weather we like it or not, then it only makes sense to get some of our needs addressed by adding them into the anti civil firearm rights bills.
 
Not only is what they are doing unconstitutional what you are suggesting continues the trend......we need a definitive supreme ct decision...period....fubsy.
 
I'm with fubsy. No more deals. Demand our rights. NO they wont like it. Thats the best part.

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Better days to be,

Ed
 
Been a long time since our Federal Government has honored a law or treaty.

Most " Martial Arts " are just that, art, entertainment, excercise etc. In a real situation when faced with lethal harm, and unable to get to safety, make your first move as deadly as possible.

Invite a non shooter to participate, educate where you can, and VOTE.

While there is still a semblance of law, work within the law to get the bad ones changed and the bad ( most ) polititions ousted.

Sam
 
Howls of rage again.

Tell me why there hasn't been a definitive
SCOTUS case - we've had plenty of applicable laws that could be challenged.

Demanding our rights is FLOPPING.

The gun culture is not a growth economy.
You preach to the choir - that won't cut it.

By the way, I take lots of folks out to the range and talk the talk.

Suggest something better that works. Not just
sitting in your chair and complaining.

Have you actually listened to the current
GOP and NRA - they are going to give us all the things I mentioned with nothing in return.

Voting for Keyes and Buchanan are nothing.

If our strategies are so brilliant, why isn't the country outraged by the SW deal?

We are - the shrinking choir.

You better come up with something new and different.

My suggestion to get a guarantee of gun ownership is clever and a better strategy than
just pissing and moaning.

It would open gun ownership to new millions.

But it is better to just complain and lose.

Tell me what strategies are working now!
 
You know, this 10-round limit of magazines has to be one of the stupidest things that has passed. According to recent studies, trained LEO's miss about 50% of the time in actual shootings. With a 10 round limit, that means that only 5 bullets would hit their mark. Now it is reasonable to assume that a less trained civilain will have a higher miss ratio and instead of 5 hits, it'll maybe be 4 or 3 hits -- which may not be enough especially if there is more than one BG. This law was passed to prevent the mass shootings that keep happening but the mass shooter will merely stock up on multiple magazines and keep reloading as he goes. This law only hurts the law-abiding citizen who hears a noise in his home in the middle of the night and goes to investigate. He's not normally going to strap on a belt with multiple magazines on it because 9 times out of 10 it will be nothing but it's that tenth time that could be the killer (no pun intended).

Of course, trigger locks are an equally stupid idea. Responsible gun owners will properly secure their weapons (law or no law) and unresponsible gun owners will not bother to use the locks anyway and then lie about it that the trigger lock was on it but the person found the key.
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[This message has been edited by FUD (edited March 26, 2000).]
 
Its too late to make political deals now.
There is going to be a huge election in November that will settle the political landscape for the next 4-8 years. Gun Control will be an important element in this election, but far from the only one.
Dealing with the enemy at this point will only demoralize our own people and stregthen the enemy by making him look "reaonable" and worthy of respect, which he definitly is not.
After November, we can look over the political landscape and take it from there as best suits our own interests.
Its a bad time to be making concessions to the wrong side.

[This message has been edited by Herodotus (edited March 27, 2000).]
 
If we could get the "I don't care as long as they don't ban my O/U shotgun and bolt-action rifle" sportsmen of their a*****, then our problems would be over. Imagine the NRA with 10-20-30 million members! Unfortunately, the only way this will happen is if the statists are stupid enough to go after "sporting" arms now.

They aren't and they won't--not until everything else is first banned.

When we do reach this point, I'll deck the first jerk who complains to me about his O/U being banned and why nothing was done to stop it.

For now, we must fight with every political, legal, and financial tool at our disposal. I don't pretend to know what will work. But I do know that compromise hasn't worked. No doubt, we are fighting a holding action, and, if present trends continue, we will lose on the legal/political level. In essence we are fighting for time.

So make wise use of this time while certain items are still plentiful:

--Obtain as many firearms as you can afford. Consider the possibility you may need to arm others as well. Get them "off-paper" if possible. (Keep in mind that every firearm that goes through instant check is illegally registered in Washington. Also keep in mind that BATF is entering every old 4473s that they can get their hands on into their database--so don't assume that just because you bought a firearm pre-Brady that it isn't already registered. Also, it may be registered on the state level.)

--Obtain as many full-capacity magazines as you can.

--Obtain as much ammo as you can.

--Learn to reload and stock plenty of components.

--Learn the basics of gunsmithing and stock plenty of springs, firing pins, and other replacement parts. (Obviously gunsmithing won't be available for civilians after the ban.)

--Don't forget accessories such as night vision, listening devices, IR heat detectors, etc.

--Tactics and training. Make friends with a combat veteran (priceless). Stay in shape.

--Mature, serious consideration of civil disobedience. Decide now whether you are willing to become what the statists will label a "bad guy" when the time arrives. Do some thinking beyond the tiresome keyboard kommando talk of "cold, dead fingers" and all that. If you are willing to comply with registration, bans, and other gun laws now because you want to be considered a "good guy," then you don't need to bother; rather, you'll only need to know when, where, and how to turn your firearms in. You might as well be honest about it now.

Perhaps some will call it defeatist, but consideration of such things is, unfortunately, becoming a reality.
 
I'm expecting them to go after ammo in the next 2 years, HARD.

If you think the average non-gun-owner is passive about bans on high-cap mags and flash suppressors, you can believe "1000 rounds of mailorder ammo" will strike a nerve. Never mind that that's a few practice sessions to anyone who knows guns.

Storage limits and an end to mailorder. Even if they don't tax ammo to death, imho not being able to order bulk (i.e. buying single boxes from a dealer) is the equivalent. Dealers will probably support it, though, they can gouge even more for ammo.


Battler.
 
You still don't get what I said.
If the laws are coming, and I see no coherent
explanation that they are not, one can
try to work some for our advantage.

If you think this is compromise, you don't
understand at all. Again this is the righteous lost position.

So just stockpile ammo and wait for even stricter laws.

It might be the case that what I suggest won't get in to the laws but your positions
are the typical wishful thinking that after tougher guns laws come there will be a revolution or a voter turnaround.

You are flat wrong. The gun issue is an issue of the choir. Unless you get the message outside of the choir - we've lost.

Guns buried in PVC might make you happy but they are useless.
 
Sorry Glenn I don't buy it.

The days of compromise are long over. No, I will not stockpile ammo, mags and weapons so that I can look at them all day long. They will be there when they are needed. And they will inevitably be needed.

Compromise, letter writing, phone calls, e-mails all sound neat but they are not worth a hill of beans.

I just got through that crap here in MD and we won. I tell you we won. We got it killed in Committee and we won.

Guess what? WE LOST!!! Glendening pulled some fast parliamentary procedures (or the threat of them) that have not been used in like 100 years to get his crap through.

Lesson - You will never win no matter what you do - so you may as well hand your stuff over to the Feds now or prepare for the inevitable.



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Thane (NRA GOA JPFO SAF CAN)
MD C.A.N.OP
tbellomo@home.com
http://homes.acmecity.com/thematrix/digital/237/cansite/can.html
www.members.home.net/tbellomo/tbellomo/index.htm
"As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression.
In both instances there is a twilight when everything remains
seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all
must be most aware of change in the air - however slight -
lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness."
--Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas
 
In the U.S., as in England and Australia, successful demands for more restrictive gun laws depend on one or more horrible killings or killing sprees, usually involving children. There are always the groups that hate guns, but it is these sickening incidents that allow them to have influence with the general public and to get their demands turned into legislation. Most people don't own guns and wouldn't even think about them if it weren't for these occurrences; they don't really give a damn about an individual RKBA, either.

I don't think the problem is shootings by thugs and career criminals; most people seem willing to assign responsibility where it belongs in those cases, rather than blaming the gun. But when it is a kid or someone with mental problems who is the shooter, it gets viewed differently, as a gun problem rather than a personal responsibility problem (kids and whackos are not responsible, by definition). Project Exile really is an answer to the gun criminal problem, as even foes like Chuck Schumer have to admit. But the kids and loonies problem is much more difficult, it seems to me.

That tells me that the key to maintaining gun rights is to improve gun safety, in the sense of keeping them out of the hands of kids and screwballs so these incidents don't happen. The kinds of measures the NRA has promoted (and done a terrific job with) involve safety instruction and firearms training. But that approach doesn't solve the problem when it comes to little kids (with irresponsible parents, granted) or people with voices in their heads telling them to go on a shooting rampage. That's when the demand for locks and smart guns rises in volume.

What's the alternative answer from our side? What are the possibilities that do not involve some sort of device on or built into the gun? In the midst of emotional demands that something be done, bluster about the sacred RKBA is way too hip for the room and cuts very little ice. I think we can confidently predict, as Glenn has, that if we don't come up with other ways to keep these awful incidents from occurring, then by default it will be locks and smart technology by law. And if those don't work, it will be ammunition controls and storage requirements, and so on down the slope. The public is not going to stand by and let these incidents occur without trying to stop them by one measure after another, however silly or intrusive they might turn out to be. And it will be ridiculously easy to marginalize any group that tries to obstruct these measures without proposing workable alternatives to them.


Byron
 
Glenn and others: I would suggest you not take such a defeatist attitude. Fight until we win or die. I for one think we can turn up the heat to an unbearable level on our GOP critters right before the sunset in 2004, to prevent re-enactment (assuming there are still some GOPers left in Congress then). The GOP talking heads are the nationalistic type "spokesmen", who are in part just talking about gun control because it's an election year - the rank and file Repubs generally listen to their constituents about gun control. The 6 house critters from my state know damn well not to vote for ANY type of gun control, or they'll get the axe.
 
Glenn, you said we were not listening, so I went back and read you initaial post.
Where did you see the GOP talking heads tell us they were going to give us National Concealed Carry as a reward for our support of someone else's agenda?
Where did you see the GOP talking heads promise us that they would give us a National Premption Law for purchasing any fire arm we want as a reward for adopting the other side's line on locks, magazines and NICS?
And where did you see Clinton pledging to sign such legislation as soon as it hit his desk?
And where is the report of the Senate and House Minority Leaders both agreeing to work in a bipartisan effort to get this important legislation though this very session of Congress?
This idea is just not real.
The reality is much better. We have shut gun control down flat, despite the most hysterical attempt in the history of this Republic to gut the Bill of Rights by attacking the 2nd. We have in fact done an outstanding job of passing our heritage on to those who will come after.
Don't get too upset by T.V. Talking Heads.
 
I feel for you Glenn. A while ago I made a post that suggested that if some additional gun control was going to creep in that we should get something in return.

My suggestion was for a 30 year ban on additional gun control laws.

What most people don't realize is if the Democrats ever take control of congress and the Presidency again (this kind of thing could happen if there was a recession or the Republicans put up bad candidates), they are going to go for broke on gun control.

Its nice to say no I'm not going to budge an inch - but if political momentum ever shifts in this country, we are going to get hit by a gun control Mac truck. The only thing that could save us is a Supreme Court ruling and I'm not sure I would count on that.

A basic rule of negociation is to always ask for something in return.

Now the best scenario would be if nothing came out of congress. However, if something did, and we didn't ask for something in return - well, that would just be dumb.
 
Glenn, I'm sorry but no deal is possible here. First, they're not willing to exchange national CCW for something as "small" and reasonable in their eyes as trigger locks or the like. Second, they believe they can get what they want without dealing. Therefore they will not deal. We can ask, but it will make no difference.
Better to fight, because that is our ONLY chance. You can't deal with people who don't want to deal with you.
 
I did not see anyone propose this.
That was the point - the GOP is agreeing to all the stuff I mentioned without negotiating one point.

The NRA agrees with most of them also.

So they will pass with no attempt to get anything.

Totally capitulation on this wave and then the next.

I suggest that if we start some clever additions we can strengthen our position
in some domains.

But that's cool. With your strategies,
there will be a trigger lock law, ban on
imported hi-caps, no private nonNICS sales
and in many areas there is no right to own a gun.

You may say no retreat but you are a Japanese soldier on Craptakwa island watching the US
Navy just pass you by.

Tell me when a leadership level serious attempt to increase the RKBA was proposed?
Remember the wimpy attempt to change the assault ban - ha ha.

So tell me how you are going to turn it around?
 
If we're talking about politicians "representing" us constituents, remember these career people are not looking out for our best interests. Instead, special interest groups represented by lobbyists with deep check books and expense accounts make sure to play these politicians like the puppets they are. These puppets are deciding our futures for us and getting paid with our money as well as the lobbyers. It seems to me that campaign finance reform is a key issue to getting accountability from the men and women we put into office. Granted this reform takes away some of RKBA interests and clout, but then we have a real chance to not allow our elected representatives to go behind our back and vote opposite our interests.

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Treason doth never prosper. What's the reason? For if it doth prosper, none dare call it treason." - John Barrington
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.[/quote]

No matter how hard I try, I can't get past this. A national anything. Maybe I'm a bit strange, but I see the argument to exchange a national restriction for a national agreement as two sides of the same coin.
 
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