It Now Turns Out that President Bush Orchestrated the War In Georgia
- Thread starter LanceOregon
- Start date
MeekAndMild
New member
No, the sorry SOB just knows that he'd much better have no-nuts in the White House than McCain.
It's weird to see Americans wanting to rush like a herd of sheep into 'Georgia' these days. One wonders if they are truely insane when they speak of Georgia as being in their sphere of influence. The Bush administration has in fact increasingly provided military support to Georgia - and has in fact egged on the conflict. The conflict has in fact been a welcomed distraction for the Bush administration - and McCain initially benefits from it moreso than Obama.
Zbigniew Brzezinski is notoriously anti-Russian ie. he's a Polish Nationalist<fascistic nationalist> who during the Carter/Reagan years visited Afghanistan and said loudly before the Taliban/Al Qaeda fighters<then supported by the U.S.A.> that 'Only Allah can decide who is rich and poor.'<Brezezinski opposed Russia's attempts to implement land reform and its attempts to build schools and hospitals and to abolish the dowry system in Afghanistan>
When I see old news footage of women being shot in Afghanistan and their bodies thrown in ditches, I think of thugs like Bezezinski and Condi Rice and others...who hated Russians so much as to tolerate and support the Taliban.
Heck, they even created Al Qaeda itself. Putin is not being extreme or illogical in his assessment of the Bush Administration's actions in Georgia.
Russia is perfectly willing to lay it all out on the table before the U.N. Let the evidence speak for itself. Bush has already gone on record in support of Islamic Chechen terrorists. Incidentally, Chechens form a large block of the Taliban's support. One wonders about America these days... They are so concerned about Georgia's border and Russia's support of Ossetia... Maybe Americans would be wiser to tend to their own borders...rather than dictate the borders of nations and cultures far far away in distant lands. The U.S. media has done an extremely poor job in reporting the situation in Georgia and Russia, to the point where the U.S. media has totally neglected the context of the events and the views of of the concerned parties.
Is Bush to blame? Bush bears the responsibility for having alienated the U.S. from Russia - and for having accomplished a reckless succession of foreign policy disasters.
Zbigniew Brzezinski is notoriously anti-Russian ie. he's a Polish Nationalist<fascistic nationalist> who during the Carter/Reagan years visited Afghanistan and said loudly before the Taliban/Al Qaeda fighters<then supported by the U.S.A.> that 'Only Allah can decide who is rich and poor.'<Brezezinski opposed Russia's attempts to implement land reform and its attempts to build schools and hospitals and to abolish the dowry system in Afghanistan>
When I see old news footage of women being shot in Afghanistan and their bodies thrown in ditches, I think of thugs like Bezezinski and Condi Rice and others...who hated Russians so much as to tolerate and support the Taliban.
Heck, they even created Al Qaeda itself. Putin is not being extreme or illogical in his assessment of the Bush Administration's actions in Georgia.
Russia is perfectly willing to lay it all out on the table before the U.N. Let the evidence speak for itself. Bush has already gone on record in support of Islamic Chechen terrorists. Incidentally, Chechens form a large block of the Taliban's support. One wonders about America these days... They are so concerned about Georgia's border and Russia's support of Ossetia... Maybe Americans would be wiser to tend to their own borders...rather than dictate the borders of nations and cultures far far away in distant lands. The U.S. media has done an extremely poor job in reporting the situation in Georgia and Russia, to the point where the U.S. media has totally neglected the context of the events and the views of of the concerned parties.
Is Bush to blame? Bush bears the responsibility for having alienated the U.S. from Russia - and for having accomplished a reckless succession of foreign policy disasters.
Now Bush is responsible for the failed policies of every president from 1945-2000? Russia I believe invaded Georgia. Georgia did not invade Russia. If the Russians recognized Georgia as a legitimate soverign nation; and invaded anyhow, that is akin to Canada invading the US because New York and Washington state decided to Secede from the union. It has nothing to do with Bush, it has everything to do with Russia being angry that all of her former forced allies want to join NATO and get US Missile Defense Systems. I do not blame them. But saber rattling and using military force, and being a Permenant Memeber of the UN Security Council, and not pulling the military back when you said you are going to. Just makes you look like a former cold war bully. Putin is trying to use American style politics to ease the blow his government is going to take, by blaming everything on Bush. :barf:
Citizen Carrier
New member
Putin.
Isn't he the guy who's been declaring that 10 anti-aircraft missiles in Poland--each with only about a 50% chance of hitting the target--pose a grave and serious threat to Russia's nuclear deterrent?
A deterrent that consists of about 430 ICBMs, 130 SLBMs, 79 strategic nuclear bombers, and a number of nuclear-tipped cruise missiles?
Uh huh.
Anybody here believe those 10 interceptors would prevent Russia from theoretically destroying enough cities to make any move against Russia not worth the loss of civilian life?
No, me neither. And I'm not even a defense analyst or general.
But we are supposed to believe that PUTIN believes it?
You know he doesn't. It sure does rouse the rabble at home though, doesn't it? Makes them feel outraged, indignant and relevent again, doesn't it? That's the point.
There is evidence suggesting that Russia was rehearsing it's Georgia invasion back in July. I wonder how Bush was able to convince them to start training up for their invasion so they'd make the timetable for the GOP convention?
Something like 21 Russian journalists have been brutally murdered since Putin came to power in 2000. Many of them critics of Putin.
Can you imagine what they'd be saying about Bush if journalists renowned for criticizing him started dying of knife attacks, shootings and car bombs?
You can give Putin's opinions weight if you want to. I'm not listening.
Isn't he the guy who's been declaring that 10 anti-aircraft missiles in Poland--each with only about a 50% chance of hitting the target--pose a grave and serious threat to Russia's nuclear deterrent?
A deterrent that consists of about 430 ICBMs, 130 SLBMs, 79 strategic nuclear bombers, and a number of nuclear-tipped cruise missiles?
Uh huh.
Anybody here believe those 10 interceptors would prevent Russia from theoretically destroying enough cities to make any move against Russia not worth the loss of civilian life?
No, me neither. And I'm not even a defense analyst or general.
But we are supposed to believe that PUTIN believes it?
You know he doesn't. It sure does rouse the rabble at home though, doesn't it? Makes them feel outraged, indignant and relevent again, doesn't it? That's the point.
There is evidence suggesting that Russia was rehearsing it's Georgia invasion back in July. I wonder how Bush was able to convince them to start training up for their invasion so they'd make the timetable for the GOP convention?
Something like 21 Russian journalists have been brutally murdered since Putin came to power in 2000. Many of them critics of Putin.
Can you imagine what they'd be saying about Bush if journalists renowned for criticizing him started dying of knife attacks, shootings and car bombs?
You can give Putin's opinions weight if you want to. I'm not listening.
Russia I believe invaded Georgia. Georgia did not invade Russia
Good God, man, try actually studying the situation before making such inane statements.
Both of those AUTONOMOUS REGIONS HAD 99% population made up of ethnic Russians. Even during the Soviet Union South Ossetia was an AUTONOMOUS REGION. But your press won't tell you that - so you have to go studying... or already know this.
Go back now and re-read .300 H&H's post with this little tidbit in mind.
This nation is sinking due to IGNORANCE, ARROGANCE & APATHY. And make no mistake about it; if we don't change course we will BURN because of it.
Good God, man, try actually studying the situation before making such inane statements.
Both of those AUTONOMOUS REGIONS HAD 99% population made up of ethnic Russians. Even during the Soviet Union South Ossetia was an AUTONOMOUS REGION. But your press won't tell you that - so you have to go studying... or already know this.
Go back now and re-read .300 H&H's post with this little tidbit in mind.
This nation is sinking due to IGNORANCE, ARROGANCE & APATHY. And make no mistake about it; if we don't change course we will BURN because of it.
Shane Tuttle
Staff
So, we have people saying we should deal with our own affairs and not make the same mistake of invading any more countries. You know, it's Bush's fault for the mess in Iraq. OK, I can see that argument.
Now, we have Putin invading Georgia and he's blaming Bush for putting it all together. When it all comes down to it, one can see it in one of two ways:
1. Bush is to blame no matter what.
2. The person pulling the trigger (enter invade a country here) is the one that's responsible.
Funny how the hypocrisy runs deep in some peoples' veins...
Citizen Carrier
New member
Chui, how much research did you do before you typed this:
Because it took me minutes to find:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/country_profiles/3797729.stm
"South Ossetia is inhabited mostly by ethnic Ossetians who speak a language remotely related to Farsi. Georgians account for less than one-third of the population."
Because it took me minutes to find:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/country_profiles/3797729.stm
"South Ossetia is inhabited mostly by ethnic Ossetians who speak a language remotely related to Farsi. Georgians account for less than one-third of the population."
apology?
So do I get an apology?
I do my own research before I post. I do not usually post my research because I am not going to do your work for you. 
Anyhow...
The point is not who lives where. The point is what is Russia's plan? To blame Bush (in essence the US) for instigating the whole Georgia mess, tells us what? What does Russia really have planned for the region? Are they willing to risk fighting NATO? Are they just saber rattling at the expense of the civilian population? Why havent they left Georgia as they stated they were going to? Does this mean that all other agreements with Russia should be looked upon as null and void? Can they be trusted to do what they say they are going to?
There is a much bigger picture then just Putin blaming Bush. This is what we need to watch. Let them spout off at the mouth all they wish, in the end we will see.
So do I get an apology?
I do my own research before I post. I do not usually post my research because I am not going to do your work for you. Anyhow...The point is not who lives where. The point is what is Russia's plan? To blame Bush (in essence the US) for instigating the whole Georgia mess, tells us what? What does Russia really have planned for the region? Are they willing to risk fighting NATO? Are they just saber rattling at the expense of the civilian population? Why havent they left Georgia as they stated they were going to? Does this mean that all other agreements with Russia should be looked upon as null and void? Can they be trusted to do what they say they are going to?
There is a much bigger picture then just Putin blaming Bush. This is what we need to watch. Let them spout off at the mouth all they wish, in the end we will see.
From some of what I have heard The BBC, Alex Jones at Infowars.com, foreign press and even Fox news (though they only ran the interview of an American 12 year old girl visting her family there when the attack started once) reported Georgia's attacks since week one of this mess as an orchastrated U.S. plan. We have been supporting Georgia for a while with equipment and advisors. We have had troops training together there as well as contractors.
Why wouldn't Georgia think they had the U.S. behind them and kick something off?
Why wouldn't Georgia think they had the U.S. behind them and kick something off?
LanceOregon
Moderator
Perhaps the fact that virtually all of America's ground forces are currently committed in the Middle East should have been something that they took into consideration before trying to take back South Ossetia.
Now Russia has officially recognized both South Ossetia and also the breakaway area of Abkhazia as being independent of Georgia. Both are clearly far too tiny to become independent nations. But both will make nice new states inside the Russian Federation.
And Russia is proceeding to do just that.
So much for them being willing to engage in negotiations with Georgia, as both France and the USA had urged. Why negotiate, when you have the upper hand?
.
Putin has repeatedly over the last 8 years made it clear to the Bush administration what Russia would do in regard to Georgia and other regions
that affect Russia's security and its concerns about autonomous Russian communities ie. during Bush's first term, Bush attended the ballet with Putin and Voronin<sp>who is the elected leader of Moldova...who presides over part of the tenuous Transniestra region of Moldova where Russia has sent peacekeepers to protect ethnic Russians. The Bush administration is well aware of these concerns; it's not as if Putin suddenly made a bold surprising move. The real surprise is that Georgia attacked Ossetia despite Russia's repeated warnings...and that Georgia continues to receive military aid from the U.S.
Face it, Bush's foreign policy record is abysmal. I felt Clinton was wrong to bomb Serbia and that Clinton should have not gone against Serbia without cooperative support from Russia...because it set the stage for more problems down the road. At the time Clinton acted against Serbia, the U.S. had the attitude that Russia was hopelessly weak. Then the U.S.A. practically gloated about Russia's problems with Chechnya. Now here we are, and Russia is stronger ie. the Russian economy has improved while the economies of places like Georgia has weakened. Now instead of gloating about Russia's problems with Chechnya, the U.S. is now bogged down in Iraq and Afghanistan, and has lost more soldiers in Iraq than Russia lost in Chechnya. Bush was still calling Chechens 'freedom fighters' while complaining about Russia not supprting the U.S. invasion of Iraq.
Things have come full circle. Russia repeatedly warned the Bush Administration that an invasion of Iraq was sheer madness, and I don't believe Putin was trying to hurt the U.S.A. when he so warned us. Russia doesn't want to occupy Georgia. Russia just wants Georgia to be a good neighbor, and to not start any crap on Russia's border by persecuting ethnic Russians or pointing U.S. arms at the heart of Russia.
The democrats are behaving a bit spinelessly too ie. one senses that both Dems and Repubs. yearn for the certainty of the old Cold War era. I don't believe either party is comfortable with the future of a Europe that is no longer galvinized by the Cold War. It's hard to keep U.S. soldiers in Europe when Russia won't cooperate by having its own troops there too. I think both the Dems and Repubs are ironically horrified at the prospect of seeing a strong E.U. that includes a strong friendly and more open Russia ajoined to it. Like Gorbachev said: We are about to do something very cruel to the U.S.A.; we are going to remove its enemy.' I hope the Obama administration will rise to the occasion and improve U.S./Russian relations, but it might also fail in this arena. The problem with the Bush Administration - is that Bush fell into the trap of trying to weaken Russia via putting a military ring around Russia and bribing breakaway republics to supprt the U.S.A. It backfired ie. Iraq weakened the U.S.A. and weakened the ring. The U.S.A. alienated key allies and simultaneously failed to realise that Russia's economy was improving...while the breakaway republics were fragile and sometimes less democratic than Russia ,herself.
Bush failed whereas Putin succeeded. Bush adoted a policy of aggressive invasions and occupations whereas Putin adopted a policy of containment and surgical strikes. Yeltsin blundered into Chechnya in much the same way Bush blundered into Iraq. Putin turned Yeltsin's blunder into a war of withdrawel and containment. Bush took a contained Iraq and turned it into a blundering invasion and quagmire occupation. Putin has no interest in occupying Georgia. Putin can truely say 'Mission Accomplished.' Bush can only look on in dismay and try to resurrect the Cold War to cover the tracks of his own ineptitude.
Obama will be greeted warmly by the Russian people. Obama will be accepted - and Russia will go to great lenghts to reestablish improved U.S./Russian relations. Incidentally, Bill Clinton is an honorary board member of Moscow University. 
Maybe Obama will be given similar honors.
that affect Russia's security and its concerns about autonomous Russian communities ie. during Bush's first term, Bush attended the ballet with Putin and Voronin<sp>who is the elected leader of Moldova...who presides over part of the tenuous Transniestra region of Moldova where Russia has sent peacekeepers to protect ethnic Russians. The Bush administration is well aware of these concerns; it's not as if Putin suddenly made a bold surprising move. The real surprise is that Georgia attacked Ossetia despite Russia's repeated warnings...and that Georgia continues to receive military aid from the U.S.
Face it, Bush's foreign policy record is abysmal. I felt Clinton was wrong to bomb Serbia and that Clinton should have not gone against Serbia without cooperative support from Russia...because it set the stage for more problems down the road. At the time Clinton acted against Serbia, the U.S. had the attitude that Russia was hopelessly weak. Then the U.S.A. practically gloated about Russia's problems with Chechnya. Now here we are, and Russia is stronger ie. the Russian economy has improved while the economies of places like Georgia has weakened. Now instead of gloating about Russia's problems with Chechnya, the U.S. is now bogged down in Iraq and Afghanistan, and has lost more soldiers in Iraq than Russia lost in Chechnya. Bush was still calling Chechens 'freedom fighters' while complaining about Russia not supprting the U.S. invasion of Iraq.
Things have come full circle. Russia repeatedly warned the Bush Administration that an invasion of Iraq was sheer madness, and I don't believe Putin was trying to hurt the U.S.A. when he so warned us. Russia doesn't want to occupy Georgia. Russia just wants Georgia to be a good neighbor, and to not start any crap on Russia's border by persecuting ethnic Russians or pointing U.S. arms at the heart of Russia.
The democrats are behaving a bit spinelessly too ie. one senses that both Dems and Repubs. yearn for the certainty of the old Cold War era. I don't believe either party is comfortable with the future of a Europe that is no longer galvinized by the Cold War. It's hard to keep U.S. soldiers in Europe when Russia won't cooperate by having its own troops there too. I think both the Dems and Repubs are ironically horrified at the prospect of seeing a strong E.U. that includes a strong friendly and more open Russia ajoined to it. Like Gorbachev said: We are about to do something very cruel to the U.S.A.; we are going to remove its enemy.' I hope the Obama administration will rise to the occasion and improve U.S./Russian relations, but it might also fail in this arena. The problem with the Bush Administration - is that Bush fell into the trap of trying to weaken Russia via putting a military ring around Russia and bribing breakaway republics to supprt the U.S.A. It backfired ie. Iraq weakened the U.S.A. and weakened the ring. The U.S.A. alienated key allies and simultaneously failed to realise that Russia's economy was improving...while the breakaway republics were fragile and sometimes less democratic than Russia ,herself.
Bush failed whereas Putin succeeded. Bush adoted a policy of aggressive invasions and occupations whereas Putin adopted a policy of containment and surgical strikes. Yeltsin blundered into Chechnya in much the same way Bush blundered into Iraq. Putin turned Yeltsin's blunder into a war of withdrawel and containment. Bush took a contained Iraq and turned it into a blundering invasion and quagmire occupation. Putin has no interest in occupying Georgia. Putin can truely say 'Mission Accomplished.' Bush can only look on in dismay and try to resurrect the Cold War to cover the tracks of his own ineptitude.
Obama will be greeted warmly by the Russian people.
Obama will be accepted - and Russia will go to great lenghts to reestablish improved U.S./Russian relations. Incidentally, Bill Clinton is an honorary board member of Moscow University. Maybe Obama will be given similar honors.The Russian bear is out of hibernation and has a pretty healthy appetite. Intrusions by Bears into English airspace, firing missles over Georgia(before this current crisis), overflights of US warships. Putin has installed himself as the ruler of Russia, and it seems the inflow of oil money into the national coffers has inflated some egos. Does Putin believe Bush to be responsible in part for the war in Georgia? I think to a certain extent he does. There is still a lot of the old Soviet cold war mentality within the Russian government. With placing missles in Poland, helping to train Georgian military, and closer ties with former Soviet republics, they feel we are invading their turf. They feel threatened. In reality a few missles in Poland and a few of our military helping train Georgian troops poses no threat to Russia, but you have to understand Russian history. This is a very serious situation that has developed with the potential to get out of hand very quickly. The Russians have thumbed their noses at the rest of the world. The rhetoric coming from Moscow these days is both threatening and disturbing. Their continued association with Iran also is rather disconcerting. Look for Russia to fan the flames of any conflict in the area where they can "intervene". Moldavia may be next. Europe had better awake from its slumber and cease its disarmament programs. I wonder if they are willing to become puppets in exchange for Russian oil. The air is getting colder as I write. Welcome to the Second Cold War. It's here whether we want it or not.
As an "intellectually honest" conservative, I trust Bush about as much as I trust Putin. They are both in charge of governments that would be more powerful if they can rally their citizens around some type of war/cold war against each other. So, what if Bush wanted this war in Georgia? He probably did. Would anyone really be surprised? So, what if Bush had nothing to do with it and Putin started this war. Would anyone be surprised?
They are one in the same, these "so called" leaders.
They are one in the same, these "so called" leaders.
good point
excellent points, but I do not think we will see the return of the Bear as it was in the 60's, 70's and 80's. They seem a bit more savvy now then the "we will bury you" crowd of the later part of the 20th.
Time to break out my old "Crazy Ivan" targets again i guess.
excellent points, but I do not think we will see the return of the Bear as it was in the 60's, 70's and 80's. They seem a bit more savvy now then the "we will bury you" crowd of the later part of the 20th.
Time to break out my old "Crazy Ivan" targets again i guess.
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Ruthless4christ
New member
maybe bush did not orchistrate the war, but he sure has screwed our allies in Georgia, just as I said he would when this all first happened. we make them feel like we will protect them by placing advisers and trainers on the ground with them and then WE completely left them out to dry in the face of a much greater enemy, while making it look like we have been very supportive the whole time...then again what ally have we not done this to? the Hmong, the Hungarians, it goes on and on.
Amen to that. I have seen this happen over and over again by various presidents. The fact is, Bush had no military options in Georgia. Our troops are pinned down in the sand protecting our Muslim ally, Iraq. Who here actually thinks that Iraq will be our friend in 10-15 years? Anyone?