I am using RCBS die set to resize my .223 cases and Hornady case trimmer to trim down to trim length. After resizing cases I am finding the mouth of the cases is too small for the #1 pilot on case trimmer. Case mouths are large enough presizing but that doesn't help as cases lengthen after resizing so trimming presizing isn't helpful. Any help to overcome this issue would be greatly appreciated.
Issue trimming .223 cases
- Thread starter LukeB
- Start date
Marco Califo
New member
223 dont stretch much and almost never need trimming. Are you using a case gauge? How many thouandths are you needing to trim? 3-5 won't even matter. 308 I have trimmed more than 20 when needed.
disseminator
New member
I had a similar problem with my RCBS trimmer. (I was sizing 45 Colt)
Different head stamp brass will have different neck thickness and spring back after you size it and that could be a factor here. Is it all of the brass or only some? Are you trimming mixed head stamps or all the same brand of brass.
FWIW, I use a WFT to trim my 5.56mm brass and it works great and you will find it MUCH quicker than a traditional trimmer arrangement.
I always trim my rifle brass. I usually do it in 1000 round batches and I just put it in a bin so I want all my brass to be the same.
A good trimmer makes it easy. Don't forget a SWAGE tool to remove the crimp from the primer pockets....
JeepHammer
Moderator
Luke, if I'm understanding you correctly, the mouth will accept a bullet, but not the pilot?
You are correct to resize case BEFORE trimming for a precisely length sized case.
I would simply lap the #1 pilot. Chuck it up in a drill and touch WET Emery cloth to the pilot until it fits your cases.
Pilots are cheap, if you decide to use an expander ball that opens case necks up more, simply get another pilot that is full size.
Lapping is using a fine abrasive to hone your metal parts to exactly fit your application.
If you put Emery cloth (not sand paper) on a paint stick, you will make a perfectly acceptable tool for lapping that pilot to size, the paint stick will keep you flat & true while the hand drill motor spins the pilot to keep it true & your cut centered.
Use a little oil to keep your cut even finer.
It's PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE to make your dies & other tools do exactly what YOU want them to do!
Keep in mind these GENERIC tools are designed to work on every case out there, from the very old to the odd military crap produced everywhere in the world.
Making them fit your particular application is perfectly acceptable...
Just remember to mark your modified pilot with a punch Mark or paint so it won't get confused with a factory pilot...
You are correct to resize case BEFORE trimming for a precisely length sized case.
I would simply lap the #1 pilot. Chuck it up in a drill and touch WET Emery cloth to the pilot until it fits your cases.
Pilots are cheap, if you decide to use an expander ball that opens case necks up more, simply get another pilot that is full size.
Lapping is using a fine abrasive to hone your metal parts to exactly fit your application.
If you put Emery cloth (not sand paper) on a paint stick, you will make a perfectly acceptable tool for lapping that pilot to size, the paint stick will keep you flat & true while the hand drill motor spins the pilot to keep it true & your cut centered.
Use a little oil to keep your cut even finer.
It's PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE to make your dies & other tools do exactly what YOU want them to do!
Keep in mind these GENERIC tools are designed to work on every case out there, from the very old to the odd military crap produced everywhere in the world.
Making them fit your particular application is perfectly acceptable...
Just remember to mark your modified pilot with a punch Mark or paint so it won't get confused with a factory pilot...
JeepHammer
Moderator
As an example, I almost always hone out the neck of factory common dies.
Common sizing dies usually compress modern civilian brass WAY too much, then use an expander ball to drag the brass back out to accept a bullet.
This ball dragging often drags the shoulder with it so the Datum Line length changes also.
This work hardens the brass at the neck, and causes other issues.
I simply hone out the neck of common dies to fit the brass I use most.
By honing the neck in the die, the die does not over compress the brass, often times not even needing an expander ball.
Since each chamber is different, the dies stay with the rifle, producing brass that better fits the chamber without overworking the brass...
A wooden dowel rod & sandpaper to shape the wood, hand drill motor, and lapping compound (abrasive suspended in grease) is all that's needed to make the die fit a particular type of brass better than the generic cutting from the factory.
A $20 or $30 set of generic dies fitted to each accuracy rifle (most of us won't have more than a couple of accuracy rifles) is a pretty cheap way to make accuracy rifles shoot better... And when the barrel is done, the loss of $30 dies after thousands of rounds isn't a big deal either.
Common sizing dies usually compress modern civilian brass WAY too much, then use an expander ball to drag the brass back out to accept a bullet.
This ball dragging often drags the shoulder with it so the Datum Line length changes also.
This work hardens the brass at the neck, and causes other issues.
I simply hone out the neck of common dies to fit the brass I use most.
By honing the neck in the die, the die does not over compress the brass, often times not even needing an expander ball.
Since each chamber is different, the dies stay with the rifle, producing brass that better fits the chamber without overworking the brass...
A wooden dowel rod & sandpaper to shape the wood, hand drill motor, and lapping compound (abrasive suspended in grease) is all that's needed to make the die fit a particular type of brass better than the generic cutting from the factory.
A $20 or $30 set of generic dies fitted to each accuracy rifle (most of us won't have more than a couple of accuracy rifles) is a pretty cheap way to make accuracy rifles shoot better... And when the barrel is done, the loss of $30 dies after thousands of rounds isn't a big deal either.
I'm with JeepHammer. Reloading tools are generic. My rifle chambers are individual.
Years ago (in the mid 70s) at the Wilson Matches (NG Championships) I was shooting with a guy from NH who was a machinist. He made case trimmers that one used in a drill press. The cutter was adjustable to trim the length you desired. He told me the pilot would probably be too thick. He made them that was so the reloader can adjust them for his needs.
So I used a tool post grinder to shave them down for my needs. I bought a 223, 308, and '06 trimmer. Wished I could locate him to have more made for different calibers.
I found you can do the same thing with the Lee Case Trimmers. Just have to modify them for your needs. Some times you need more then one for caliber. My 308 rifles aren't the same so I have to have trimmers for each rifle.
Years ago (in the mid 70s) at the Wilson Matches (NG Championships) I was shooting with a guy from NH who was a machinist. He made case trimmers that one used in a drill press. The cutter was adjustable to trim the length you desired. He told me the pilot would probably be too thick. He made them that was so the reloader can adjust them for his needs.
So I used a tool post grinder to shave them down for my needs. I bought a 223, 308, and '06 trimmer. Wished I could locate him to have more made for different calibers.
I found you can do the same thing with the Lee Case Trimmers. Just have to modify them for your needs. Some times you need more then one for caliber. My 308 rifles aren't the same so I have to have trimmers for each rifle.
JeepHammer
Moderator
Keep in mind that 99% of the case neck length trimmers out there are flat face cutter.
Cutting surfaces 90* to the neck mouth opening.
Flat face trimmers work the same portion of the cutters at all times & rarely get replaced or sharpened.
This makes for a dull cutting surface that has to be forced into the brass harder, more or less gouging the brass rather than smoothly shaving the brass off the neck.
When you use force, the brass deflects, 'Smooshes' out away from a dull cutter.
This creates a 'T' shaped rim on the mouth, which has to be trimmed both inside & outside.
A SHARP 'V' shaped cutter is more efficient and removed the inside & outside deburr & champfer requirements.
While most cutters are made from high speed steel or tool steel (which dulls fairly quickly because brass is abrasive and dulls softer cutter materials quickly), a hard carbide cutter does a better job and lasts longer.
A pilot tool uses a flat faced cutter, while a 'Fly' (as in flying free, in an off set orbit) can use a 'V' shaped cutter.
If you do many cases, the time savings alone will justify the $130 or so cost of a fly cutter that can be micrometer adjusted to precisely fit the cases you produce.
The 'Trim It II' is an example of a fly tool that accepts a 'V' shaped cutting g tool.
http://www.eztrimit.com
The 'Trim It' is a flat face cutter, while the 'Trim It II' is a 'V' shaped cutter that uses a carbide cutting tool with 3 cutting 'V's ground into it (3X service life before replacement).
This tool is for DATUM LINE sized cases!
The distance from case head (head stamped surface) to the Datum Line on the shoulder of the case.
This is the measurement you shoot for so the case fits the chamber body (chamber headspace) in the rifle.
The second measurement is from Datum Line to case mouth, this is the measurement you change with cutting to get the case over all length.
Common 'Punch & Load' reloaders won't take the two measurements together to get a total, they will just punch the case, measure it & call it good...
These fly cutters index off the Datum Line on the case shoulder, so it's a real good idea to master sizing case & shoulder consistently before you use this type of trimmer...
Cutting surfaces 90* to the neck mouth opening.
Flat face trimmers work the same portion of the cutters at all times & rarely get replaced or sharpened.
This makes for a dull cutting surface that has to be forced into the brass harder, more or less gouging the brass rather than smoothly shaving the brass off the neck.
When you use force, the brass deflects, 'Smooshes' out away from a dull cutter.
This creates a 'T' shaped rim on the mouth, which has to be trimmed both inside & outside.
A SHARP 'V' shaped cutter is more efficient and removed the inside & outside deburr & champfer requirements.
While most cutters are made from high speed steel or tool steel (which dulls fairly quickly because brass is abrasive and dulls softer cutter materials quickly), a hard carbide cutter does a better job and lasts longer.
A pilot tool uses a flat faced cutter, while a 'Fly' (as in flying free, in an off set orbit) can use a 'V' shaped cutter.
If you do many cases, the time savings alone will justify the $130 or so cost of a fly cutter that can be micrometer adjusted to precisely fit the cases you produce.
The 'Trim It II' is an example of a fly tool that accepts a 'V' shaped cutting g tool.
http://www.eztrimit.com
The 'Trim It' is a flat face cutter, while the 'Trim It II' is a 'V' shaped cutter that uses a carbide cutting tool with 3 cutting 'V's ground into it (3X service life before replacement).
This tool is for DATUM LINE sized cases!
The distance from case head (head stamped surface) to the Datum Line on the shoulder of the case.
This is the measurement you shoot for so the case fits the chamber body (chamber headspace) in the rifle.
The second measurement is from Datum Line to case mouth, this is the measurement you change with cutting to get the case over all length.
Common 'Punch & Load' reloaders won't take the two measurements together to get a total, they will just punch the case, measure it & call it good...
These fly cutters index off the Datum Line on the case shoulder, so it's a real good idea to master sizing case & shoulder consistently before you use this type of trimmer...
I cleaned , sized & trimmed .223 brass for a friend who neck sizes only . His brass was pretty dark . I wanted to show him how clean his brass could get when cleaned in a wet tumbler with Stainless Steel Pins an dish detergent , popped the primers , cleaned and measured case length . I was surprised to see quite a few were to long . I sized them all to the middle of the trim scale . Some trimmed just fine some were as tight as a nats ass stretched over a wagon wheel . used 0000 steel wool wrapped around a pencil point to clean up the inside of those cases , they also had to be trimmed back a lot . Once the cases are trimmed to the length you like , I trim every firing then its a breeze. You could some dry lube , Redding sells it mixed with fine beads. It could also be the case isn't straight . I using the RCBS Trim pro , With cleaning the inside of the necks I got them trimmed , I feel it was a combination of the cases were too long ,should have been trimmed awhile ago & pretty grungy.
JeepHammer
Moderator
With all the easily replaceable cutting edges out there, I don't know why someone doesn't use them in a trimmer. Most have two or three cutting edges and are replaced with a single set screw, and are MUCH harder/last longer than the HSS/tool steel cutter faces...
The inserts at the top of this page are common as nails in the machine tool world and would last the average reloader a lifetime since they have 4 cutting edges and are carbide.
https://www.kennametal.com/en/products/20478624/556249/3925999.html
The inserts at the top of this page are common as nails in the machine tool world and would last the average reloader a lifetime since they have 4 cutting edges and are carbide.
https://www.kennametal.com/en/products/20478624/556249/3925999.html
JeepHammer
Moderator
I *PERSONALLY* don't trim to an exact length anymore...
I used to be anal retentive about case body sizing (Datum Line) and still do that,
But I found out shooting bench rifles the case overall length (within reason!) Doesn't matter that much.
The primary function of the neck is to hold the bullet centered with the barrel bore,
The secondary function is to seal up the chamber against gasses/gas jetting.
As long as the neck doesn't contact the second shoulder in the chamber, it really didn't seem to make a difference in accuracy.
Getting the case to fit the chamber (fit chamber headspace, Datum line sizing) is most important so the case doesn't jam the bolt (too long!) Or stretch the case a ton (too short!) The cases come it of the chamber pretty close to where they went in the chamber.
The second is neck sizing.
'Bullet Hold', 'Neck Tension', etc. Is second most important.
There is a reason I hone/lap my dies & expander balls to produce CONSISTANT cases.
When a see someone professing to be an 'Expert' saying to push the bullet on the bench and see if it slides back into the case I cringe!
The most unreliable way to test anything is human produced force (muscle force), if you don't believe me, try an hold a scale down at an exact pressure/weight on the readout.
You will learn VERY QUICKLY you can't trust muscle force estimation.
This is the reason presses have mechanical stops, humans invented torque wrenches & scales...
As for ANY commonly produced 'Inexpensive' die sets, or any other 'Common' tools, make them do what YOU want! It's just metal, and the stuff you are messing with are cheap & common...
Make it do what YOU want, not the 'One Size Fits Nothing Precisely', the way they come from the factory.
In the long haul, you *Might* scrap a $30 die in the learning process. I consider $30 education pretty darn cheap, and then you get exactly what you need for your specific application!
In the case of the OPs pilot, it's probably under $10 with shipping, and he will get a tool that gives him EXACTLY what he needs/wants. Most places will send him a new pilot for free if he says the one he has is oversize, and he'll have two, one to mess with, one to leave factory.
I used to be anal retentive about case body sizing (Datum Line) and still do that,
But I found out shooting bench rifles the case overall length (within reason!) Doesn't matter that much.
The primary function of the neck is to hold the bullet centered with the barrel bore,
The secondary function is to seal up the chamber against gasses/gas jetting.
As long as the neck doesn't contact the second shoulder in the chamber, it really didn't seem to make a difference in accuracy.
Getting the case to fit the chamber (fit chamber headspace, Datum line sizing) is most important so the case doesn't jam the bolt (too long!) Or stretch the case a ton (too short!) The cases come it of the chamber pretty close to where they went in the chamber.
The second is neck sizing.
'Bullet Hold', 'Neck Tension', etc. Is second most important.
There is a reason I hone/lap my dies & expander balls to produce CONSISTANT cases.
When a see someone professing to be an 'Expert' saying to push the bullet on the bench and see if it slides back into the case I cringe!
The most unreliable way to test anything is human produced force (muscle force), if you don't believe me, try an hold a scale down at an exact pressure/weight on the readout.
You will learn VERY QUICKLY you can't trust muscle force estimation.
This is the reason presses have mechanical stops, humans invented torque wrenches & scales...
As for ANY commonly produced 'Inexpensive' die sets, or any other 'Common' tools, make them do what YOU want! It's just metal, and the stuff you are messing with are cheap & common...
Make it do what YOU want, not the 'One Size Fits Nothing Precisely', the way they come from the factory.
In the long haul, you *Might* scrap a $30 die in the learning process. I consider $30 education pretty darn cheap, and then you get exactly what you need for your specific application!
In the case of the OPs pilot, it's probably under $10 with shipping, and he will get a tool that gives him EXACTLY what he needs/wants. Most places will send him a new pilot for free if he says the one he has is oversize, and he'll have two, one to mess with, one to leave factory.
jetinteriorguy
New member
I have three sets of dies for .223. RCBS regular and small base, and Lee. I have the same problem with both of the RCBS sets, but no problem with the Lee. And my rifle consistently hovers right around MOA with the Lee dies so I just use them. If I were to use the RCBS dies I would just lap down the trimmer pilot, but since my Lee dies work just fine I'm not going to bother messing with it.
"...too small for the #1 pilot..." Suggests Hornady thinks trimming is a pre-sizing thing. Doesn't really matter much anyway. A case that requires trimming will not stretch enough when it gets sized to matter. As long as the case is under the Max case length but longer than the SAAMI minimum, 1.730" for .223, you're fine.
And trimming is not an every time thing either. It's only done when the cases get over the SAAMI max case length, 1.760" for .223. Otherwise, you're fine.
And trimming is not an every time thing either. It's only done when the cases get over the SAAMI max case length, 1.760" for .223. Otherwise, you're fine.
It isn't a big deal for people who can afford it. When I got started reloading, it took me nearly a year to save up enough money to buy my first press, dies, balance & lube pad. Of course, minimum wage at the time was $2.30 an hour (although it went to $2.65 an hour while I was saving).
Even today, if I was making $7.25 or even $17.25 an hour, tossing a $30 set of dies would be hard to stomach.
I would either go ahead with your plan to narrow the pilot or, if you like buying gadgetry, you can get the Sinclair turning mandrel die body and the appropriate size mandrels to open the mouths up a little.
Another thing you could do is call Hornady and ask if they'll send you a smaller one? Offer to send them one of your resized cases to get a fit to.
Cases do all their neck growing during resizing, so you generally want to trim after resizing. A second reason is that all cases don't seem to grow the exact same amount in each loading cycle, so if you want to avoid introducing irregular lengths, you don't want to trim before resizing.
Another thing you could do is call Hornady and ask if they'll send you a smaller one? Offer to send them one of your resized cases to get a fit to.
Cases do all their neck growing during resizing, so you generally want to trim after resizing. A second reason is that all cases don't seem to grow the exact same amount in each loading cycle, so if you want to avoid introducing irregular lengths, you don't want to trim before resizing.
Thank you for saying that.
I know there are a lot of people that visit this site who have good skills as machinists but might be restrained by the reverential way we often approach reloading. I appreciate someone who has a wealth of experience encouraging others to use their skills to improve their equipment.
In my case, fortunately, my "generic" dies work perfectly well for all the cartridges I shoot and deliver all the accuracy I am physically able to achieve.
m&p45acp10+1
New member
I use the Frankfort Arsenal trim, and prep center. I trim my .223 brass to be a bit shorter than most will do. I get more firings before it needs to be trimmed. Most will have neck splits before then. So I do not have to worry about trimming it again. I like the trimmer I have as it is fairly quick, and I can remove primer pocket crimps at the same time while prepping the brass. For trimming it is like using an electric pencil sharpener.
Disclaimer: I don't own a Giraud trimmer (yet) and have not used one but it sure seems like it might be a nifty way to trim cases.
The Giraud Tri-Way trimmer for .223. It trims, chamfers and deburs at the same time, discussed in this thread:
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=588132&highlight=trimmer
http://www.giraudtool.com/Tri Way Trimmer.htm
The Giraud Tri-Way trimmer for .223. It trims, chamfers and deburs at the same time, discussed in this thread:
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=588132&highlight=trimmer
http://www.giraudtool.com/Tri Way Trimmer.htm