Israeli carry effective ?

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What would concern me is the inability to become and then remain proficient and confident with the weapon you're expected to carry. THAT can get you hurt (or worse) a lot quicker and more often than having an empty chamber.

I agree with the others--COME TO THE U.S. Hell, immigrate to Teas and we'll feed you all the barbecue you can eat.
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Absolutely the major dilemma is lack of training rather than specific carry mode. I guess I just wanted a few thoughts from people who can train more and may have good things to say about israeli carry. BTW I think my wife's company has it's US base in Dallas so I'm crossing my fingers.
Interestingly enough, when I was CQB trained by SAS Princess Gate assaulters (Iranian Embassy Raid, London) they forgot to mention the technique.
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That's +1 for me. I can't speak for UK sas but I live in Perth where australian sas are based and know a couple of them. They carry loaded chamber.
 
I'd say to make the best of what you have. It's not ideal, but it's not a disaster either.

Practice drawing and chambering a round so that it's second nature. It won't be as fast as a simple draw, but if you practice, you can get pretty fast. The key is that it needs to be a natural motion so you don't have to think about it.

Replace the rear sight with a steel sight having a profile that will allow you to rack the slide by catching the rear sight on your belt or the edge of your holster and pushing. Practice that technique until you can do it proficiently. If your other hand is wounded or occupied with something important you will need to be able to get your gun into action rapidly one-handed.
 
Practice

For JohnKSa, that is alizeefan main problem as he cannot have the weapon at home to practice. Unfortunate set of circumstances. As we all know practice will build speed and make one more confident in handling his weapon in a tense situation.:cool:
 
I have to agree with Night Watch. I carry C-3 all the time. I train with the Mossad draw all the time. I teach it to people who want to learn self-defense combat pistol shooting. Once learned and incorporated into your style, it's no slower than running loaded. That's my opinion, but my results back it up, too.
 
Who are some of the agencies/entities who either did use or continue to use the Israeli method?
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Let's start with a whole bunch of Israelis, who did, and still do. Toss in the U.S. military, who mandated chamber empty carry on handguns for most of the 20th Century, and still do so in many areas. The Russian police and military. The British South African Police. The Shanghai Police. The OSS. The SAS. Police all over Europe. Dozens, perhaps hundreds more.

The point is that for a long time, chamber empty was THE NORMAL WAY to carry autoloaders for EVERYONE, and is still the norm for lots of people and organizations.

I'm intrigued. When did the UK SAS use this method?
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The ones I knew in the 1970's all carried BHPs with empty chambers. This was also the default for the Rhodesian SAS at the time.
 
I’m not saying - nor do I mean to imply - that unchambered carry is a superior method of engagement. It is not! However unchambered carry offers advantages to: my family, myself, and to my neighbors as well that I find more useful than being constantly locked and loaded.
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+1
 
This debate between "C-1 and C-3 carry: who does it and who doesn't" doesnt need to be a who's better debate. Who gives a rat's patooty what agencies carry in C-3? Most everyone here chooses C-1 as the preferred method of carry TODAY...because most present day firearms can be carried safely and effectively this way.

So, basically, it comes down to the company policy as described by the OP: if C-1 carry is unauthorized, then C-3 carry will have to do...alizeefan will just have to ensure that chambering a round with one hand is somehow practiced routinely.
 
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The point is that for a long time, chamber empty was THE NORMAL WAY to carry autoloaders for EVERYONE...
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There's a significant difference between the organizations you list and "EVERYONE". It was certainly more common in times past, particularly before the advent of firing pin safeties, but "EVERYONE" is definitely an overstatement.

BTW, you mentioned the Shanghai Police as an organization that advocated/practiced chamber empty carry. There's a little more to that story...That organization's trainers (Fairbairn & Sykes) were advocates of deactivating any and all safeties on a pistol.
It is better, we think, to make the pistol permanently “unsafe” and then to devise such methods of handling it that there will be no accidents. One of the essentials of the instruction courses which follow is that the pistols used shall have their side safety-catches permanently pinned down in the firing or “unsafe” position.”​
I think that makes it a little more clear why they mandated chamber empty carry.
 
According to an acquaintance who lives in Israel, their method of carry is mandated by Israeli law. Semi-auto pistols (the most common sidearm) are carred in C-3; Magazine inserted, chamber empty, safety off.

Three reasons exist for this policy.
1. Prevention of AD/ND's, especially in high density cities.
2. Muggings & robberies are surprisingly few (guns are open carry)
3. In the event of a shooting event, any unarmed Israeli can pick up the sidearm of an armed Israeli who is down, rack the slide and fire. He does not have to figure out the safety mechanism if he is unfamilar with the model. This policy works well, too.


I don't know beans about civil law in Oz, but you might be able to open some civil liability against the employer by sending a letter outlining the hazards of a guard carrying a money bag and trying to chamber a round when attacked. At the very least, he might spring for some Level II vests.
 
Anybody would think we have a major crime problem in Australia. (WE Don't )If you want to use this as an excuse for not working, fine, but I think an excuse is all that it is.

I would happily carry a pistol without a round in the chamber when undertaking that type of duty in Australia.

Most security guards doing ATM work in Sydney, Melbourne and Canberra (with which I am most familiar) work in teams of at least two people and still use revolvers anyway.

Given the lack of training given to most of these security guards I think it probably best that they have empty chambers anyway.
 
Anybody would think we have a major crime problem in Australia. (WE Don't )If you want to use this as an excuse for not working, fine, but I think an excuse is all that it is.

I would happily carry a pistol without a round in the chamber when undertaking that type of duty in Australia.

Most security guards doing ATM work in Sydney, Melbourne and Canberra (with which I am most familiar) work in teams of at least two people and still use revolvers anyway.

Given the lack of training given to most of these security guards I think it probably best that they have empty chambers anyway.
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your entire post is a massive generalization. We don't have a major crime problem in australia, I think the five guys from my previous company who were shot and killed would see it differently, and I just know your not lumping me in with the majority of the idiots that unfortunately do make up this industry. Your whole " don't worry it will never happen " attitude is exactly what is wrong with this industry and this country.
 
your entire post is a massive generalization. We don't have a major crime problem in australia, I think the five guys from my previous company who were shot and killed would see it differently, and I just know your not lumping me in with the majority of the idiots that unfortunately do make up this industry. Your whole " don't worry it will never happen " attitude is exactly what is wrong with this industry and this country.
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Good points. US citizens should really think long and hard about the complacency of most people here in the US and our eroding constitutional rights.
 
Personal Safety

alizeefan, as I stated early on when this first started, the company I work for Loomis had two employees shot and killed in the Philly, Pa. area. Both men were servicing a drive up ATM machine. Both men were retired Philly police officers. Both chose NOT to a vest that day, for what ever reason and paid the ultimate price for there choice. Other factors are being complacent in there duties and job. Our company is being hush hush on this because they feel it would be in poor taste to speake poorly of the dead. To a degree I diagree with this. Perhaps we could all learn a valueable lesson from the mistakes. Too many questions have been left UNANSWERED as to what and why it turned out the way it did. One I have is what was the driver doing? He is supposed to be watching and constantly scaning looking for potential problems is just one of the many Q&A's. I wear a level IIA which acording to the maker will stop a 357 round with some blunt trama. IMO unless it turns out to be a professional take down, the possible attempt will be with use of a hand gun and most likely a 9mm by a amature. The pros want the money and beat feet ASAP. This is all my opinion. If you take this job and if anything BE VIGILANT and do your best to stay in CODE YELLOW while at work.:cool:
 
Creature

Good points. US citizens should really think long and hard about the complacency of most people here in the US and our eroding constitutional rights.
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One thing is for sure, once government gains control of something it doesn't give it back.
 
There's a significant difference between the organizations you list and "EVERYONE". It was certainly more common in times past, particularly before the advent of firing pin safeties, but "EVERYONE" is definitely an overstatement.
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No more so than many other "every" type statements tossed around here on a regular basis. And of course one can also make the argument that given the sentence structure everyone in that context can be seen as a reference to organizations and not each individual human being in the world (ain't linguistics fun!:D).
There's a little more to that story.
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Sure, there is always more to the story. More also includes bits that you left out, such as senoir officers that carried 1911s WITHOUT the pinned safeties also carried chamber empty, and that Fairbairn and Sykes model was also used in WWII with 1911s, BHPs, etc without the pinned safeties, and, as usual, nobody seems to have had much trouble with it.
 
Nightwatch,
No offense taken.

"Your comments seem to reflect more of a gamesman’s mentality than the carefully acquired conclusions of a genuine pistolero. Please don’t take offense, though. This is, after all, the internet; and that’s OK!"

I am not a gamesman. I carry, use, and instruct the use of firearms (among other options) for a living. My "been there done that" stories don't measure compared to some, certainly, but on the other hand I still "go there and do that" routinely.

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Another place where the Israeli Method falls short: Trasitioning from a long gun to the pistol. The ususal reason for this are (1) that your long gun has gone down or that (2) you need to negotiate a space where thelong gun is perceived as a hinderance. Time is of the essence in 1. Not so much in 2, though why add the extra step?
 
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"In the event of a shooting event, any unarmed Israeli can pick up the sidearm of an armed Israeli who is down, rack the slide and fire. He does not have to figure out the safety mechanism if he is unfamilar with the model. This policy works well, too."

Correct - this is why the Israelis adopted it; a concession to their state of pistol familiarity and training as a population.

That same concession to familiarity and training can be found else where... so that makes it a best practice exactly how?
 
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...that Fairbairn and Sykes model was also used in WWII with 1911s, BHPs, etc without the pinned safeties, and, as usual, nobody seems to have had much trouble with it.
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I suspect that few people had much trouble with it because as soon as they walked away from the parade ground they chambered a round. ;)

However, I do acknowledge that it was much more common in times past--just as SA only autopistols without firing pin safeties were the norm in times past. When DA/SA autos and firing pin safeties became more available, chamber empty carry largely fell out of favor.
 
so that makes it a best practice exactly how?
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I think some are missing the point. Certainly, given modern pistol designs and training, and most people's situations, chamber loaded is the normal default option at this time. But the question is not "what is the best" but "is it effective?" History has answered that for us with a resounding "yes".
 
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