Is waterboarding torture?

[STAGE 2]

We executing dozens of Japanese for using it in WW2 because it was considered so heinous. Just because our enemies might do something doesn't justify us doing it. What next? Justifying mass murder of civilians because an enemy may do so?

Irrelevant comparison. It violates the laws of war to waterboard POW's. Terrorists are not POW's.

There is no proof that it ever gets reliable information on time that is useful and other legal methods are far more effective and efficient at gaining information.

Sorry, but factually this is completely incorrect. Waterboarding in extremely effective and has proven this on several occasions. It has given us valuable intelligence when other methods had failed miserably.

 

[sholling]

Shades of Jack Bauer but if a foreign terrorist knows something that endangers one American I'll proudly supply the pliers and blow torch to get it out of him.

 

[Hawg]

There ya go - no moral compass whatsoever.

You're right. I have no compassion for the enemy, none whatsoever, moral or otherwise. I don't give a dead rats a$$ what you or anybody else thinks of me either.

 

[Musketeer]

Shades of Jack Bauer but if a foreign terrorist knows something that endangers one American I'll proudly supply the pliers and blow torch to get it out of him.

Go right ahead. If you feel your freedom is worth saving the lives of fellow Americans I applaud your sense of duty and responsibility to make a decision to take an action which you know to be illegal and be held accountable for it. If it was the right decision you can always ask for a Presidential Pardon and I would wager you would get it. If it was the wrong decision then you have to pay for it.

 

[Musketeer]

Waterboarding in extremely effective and has proven this on several occasions. It has given us valuable intelligence when other methods had failed miserably.

So then where is Osama Bin Laden?

 

[Hawg]

take an action which you know to be illegal

According to who? The wussy liberal pansies? They're not American citizens. Our constitutional laws do not apply. They're not Geneva Convention signers so that doesn't apply. They're our enemies whether they take up arms or not. They wouldn't be incarcerated if they weren't suspect. There can be no civilians in a war. They sure as Hell don't abide by any rules where our prisoners are concerned.

 

[Kreyzhorse]

Irrelevant comparison. It violates the laws of war to waterboard POW's. Terrorists are not POW's.

And that is where it gets sticky. How do we define a terrorist? How do we define enemy combatant. Is a suspected terrorist the same as a terrorist? Habeas Corpus is back on life support but does being called a suspected terrorist make it null and void? If so, that's dangerous for us all.

While I would support water boarding in rare cases, I don't support it as a general rule. I would guess, if any of us were "suspected terrorists," that with a little waterboarding or worse, we would sooner or later most likely confess that we were indeed terrorists, or witches or heretics.

The waterboarding to me isn't just about is it torture or not, it is about side stepping part of what this country was built on. Its a slippery slope for all of us as a country.

 

[Musketeer]

Because our people are mistreated we should mistreat others who are our prisoners? Sorry, that is barbaric and morally bankrupt.

Fight them and kill them. If you capture them treat them as spies and saboteurs by trying and executing them. Do not lock people away with no oversight and torture them for information.

 

[Musketeer]

They're our enemies whether they take up arms or not. They wouldn't be incarcerated if they weren't suspect. There can be no civilians in a war.

So basically everyone is our enemy? Is the farmer tending a field in Afghanistan who has never seen an American our enemy, how about his 7 year old daughter?

Being suspect is grounds for being incarcerated. Being incarcerated is grounds for being suspect. They are automatically our enemies and there are no civilians so we can do whatever we want. Your logic is truly dizzying.

Well if there are no civilians then blowing up American "civilian" aircraft and even setting off a WMD in an American city means it acceptable since we are "at war" and such attacks are against viable military targets. Is that what you are saying? Or are you making the empty argument that there are no civilians EXCEPT for Americans?

 

[Yellowfin]

Is beating a dead horse over waterboarding considered torture? 100% yes.

 

[Hawg]

Well if there are no civilians then blowing up American "civilian" aircraft and even setting off a WMD in an American city means it acceptable since we are "at war

What do you think got us into this in the first place or have you forgotten 911? I haven't and am not going to.

 

[roscoe]

They're our enemies whether they take up arms or not. They wouldn't be incarcerated if they weren't suspect. There can be no civilians in a war.

Amazing - those three sentences contain three untruths. Three for three. Add to the fact that the first two don't really make any sense.

this one sentence particularly:

They wouldn't be incarcerated if they weren't suspect.

Wow - where to start on that one. Right out of George Orwell.

 

[Musketeer]

What do you think got us into this in the first place or have you forgotten 911? I haven't and am not going to.

Living on Long Island, having had an uncle in Tower 2 (who made it out) and friends and family among the NYPD responders (again all escaped) I have certainly not forgotten 9/11. Living in an area where everyone knows at least one person if not more who lost a close friend or family member the events of 9/11 are ingrained deeper here than almost anywhere else.

I though am not the one who claimed

They're our enemies whether they take up arms or not. They wouldn't be incarcerated if they weren't suspect. There can be no civilians in a war.

I merely point out the fallacy of that argument. It can be used equally to justify their attacks upon American citizens. If there are no civilians and one need not take up arms to be an enemy then you would have to agree that every dead worker in the WTC, every Port Authority PD, NYPD and FDNY member crushed under those buildings were fair game.

I reject it in its entirety and believe America should hold itself to a higher standard than those who would destroy us.

 

[Hawg]

That's me and that's the way I feel about it. I'm no goody two shoes with heart and compassion for the enemy. You kids go on feeling good about your compassionate selves.

 

[sholling]

Go right ahead. If you feel your freedom is worth saving the lives of fellow Americans I applaud your sense of duty and responsibility to make a decision to take an action which you know to be illegal and be held accountable for it.

Buddy this is war with terrorists not some cop show on TV. Under international law they have no rights. The president could order them shot. Despite the BS arguments - we aren't talking about hauling in Americans off the street and water boarding them. We are talking about getting information out of terrorists and gorilla warriors caught without uniform and under arms on foreign soil. They have no rights under international law - only in the vivid imaginations of bleeding heats. These are animals that get off killing children and you cannot beat them by suing them to make them stop. They don't give a rats tail about your daughter's life and would happily stake her to an ant hill. Why should we be falling all over ourselves to make nice.

Grow a pair people!

 

[Unregistered]

Buddy this is war with terrorists not some cop show on TV. Under international law they have no rights. The president could order them shot. Despite the BS arguments

I would argue that shooting them is much more moral and humane than torturing them. Torturing and incarcerating them indefinitely is expensive, and also makes us look like savages to the rest of the world. Summary execution to those combatants we think deserve it is not cruel or unusual. It is also quick, and gets them out of the media spot light.

We are talking about getting information out of terrorists and gorilla warriors

We are really up the creek if Al qaeda has managed to train gorilla warriors. Our only hope is to bring a shirtless Charlton Heston back to life if we are facing the Planet of the Apes.

 

[Derius_T]

sholling wrote:

Buddy this is war with terrorists not some cop show on TV. Under international law they have no rights. The president could order them shot. Despite the BS arguments - we aren't talking about hauling in Americans off the street and water boarding them. We are talking about getting information out of terrorists and gorilla warriors caught without uniform and under arms on foreign soil. They have no rights under international law - only in the vivid imaginations of bleeding heats. These are animals that get off killing children and you cannot beat them by suing them to make them stop. They don't give a rats tail about your daughter's life and would happily stake her to an ant hill. Why should we be falling all over ourselves to make nice. Grow a pair people!

I agree 100%. We take the moral high ground, and they saw our peoples heads off on tv when they capture them. We get in trouble for stripping them naked and taking pictures! What the hell is wrong with you people?

This is exactly why they attack us, and will continue to do so. THEY DO NOT FEAR US. They know we can't or won't do the horrible things to them that they would not hesitate to do to us! They mock us, and do not respect or fear our wrath. They should. War is hell. To hell with them.

(obviously I exclude women and children who do not physically take up arms against us)

We need to dip our bullets in bacon fat before we kill those bastards. Let them know we are sending their souls to hell. No more free tickets to paradise, no more virgins. PUT SOME FEAR INTO THEM. They call us infidels? Lets show 'em how infidels operate. Why do we have to feel sorry for enemy soldiers who kill our women and children, and who cut the heads off of captured NON-COMBATANTS? Why do we have to take it EASY on them? Screw them.

And I don't wanna hear that crap about it making us as bad as them. It doesn't. WE KILL KILLERS. PERIOD. Kill them with bullets. Leave the Love and Kindness to the Hippies. It doesn't work.

 

[Unregistered]

Not everyone's moral code allows them to act with the barbarism described above.

 

[Musketeer]

There is nothing wrong with taking the moral high ground and NOT engaging in torture. Fight them and kill them. If you catch them then try them and execute them. While they are in our custody treat them with the care the US and the civilized world recognizes as proper.

 

[sholling]

I agree 100%. We take the moral high ground, and they saw our peoples heads off on tv when they capture them. We get in trouble for stripping them naked and taking pictures! What the hell is wrong with you people?

This is exactly why they attack us, and will continue to do so. THEY DO NOT FEAR US. They know we can't or won't do the horrible things to them that they would not hesitate to do to us! They mock us, and do not respect or fear our wrath. They should. War is hell. To hell with them.

(obviously I exclude women and children who do not physically take up arms against us)

We need to dip our bullets in bacon fat before we kill those bastards. Let them know we are sending their souls to hell. No more free tickets to paradise, no more virgins. PUT SOME FEAR INTO THEM. They call us infidels? Lets show 'em how infidels operate. Why do we have to feel sorry for enemy soldiers who kill our women and children, and who cut the heads off of captured NON-COMBATANTS? Why do we have to take it EASY on them? Screw them.

Exactly! They have no fear of us because they know many of us are weak and unwilling to do what it takes to win. We sure have a ton of what Lenin called "useful idiots" that are bound and determined to lose don't we...

Oh and news flash for the bleeding hearts. A lot of useful life saving information was gleaned during the Revolution, the Civil War, WWI, WWII, Korea, and Vietnam using techniques no where near as kind and gentle was waterboarding. This isn't a Bush invention. And never before in history would so many panties have gotten in a bunch over putting underwear on a POW's head. Next up combat troops will be issued ACLU approved squirt guns in place deadly weapons, but the water will have to be sterile and blessed by a Mullah first so that no one is offended.