Is this Case Separating?

[Metal god]

How does one "bump the shoulder"? From what I can tell, the FL sizing die isn't adjustable. Meaning, as long as you run the case all the way through, there shouldn't be a way to adjust where the shoulder is place. Right?

No , it's infinitely adjustable . Just screw it in or out and you have adjusted how much it sizes the case .

I'd help more but I see Guffey or as I think of him "confuser in chief" is posting here . So there's no reason to try and help more because you'll just get more confused by the time this gets closed .

 

[F. Guffey]

No , it's infinitely adjustable . Just screw it in or out and you have adjusted how much it sizes the case .

reloaders assume the die is infinitely adjustable, that is most assume, I don't because I am the one that understands the case can have more resistance to sizing than the press, die and shell holder can overcome. And then there is the case whipping the press, I am the one that insist on knowing 'by how much'; again I use the feeler gage when determining if the shell holder made it to the die. If the shell holder does not make it to the die anything protruding from the die did not get sized.

After that there is the distance from the shoulder of the die to the deck of the shell holder; There are at least three ways to determine the ability of the die and shell holder to return a case to minimum length. Most reloaders had rather assume and or make up scary old stories about manufacturing being irresponsible when making die and shell holders. My shell holders have a deck height of .125". My shell holders that do not have a deck height of .125" are special shell holders. I ca turn all of my shell holders into special shell holders with a feeler gage.

And then there are grinders, if it don't fit grind it; grind the top of the shell holder or base of the die. I am the only one with a precision grinder that grinds tapers, angles and stock to length; I have never used it to grind a die and or shell holder.

I'd help more but I see Guffey or as I think of him "confuser in chief" is posting here . So there's no reason to try and help more because you'll just get more confused by the time this gets closed .

Again and again I ask: What is it that you do not understand about the shoulder when sizing and firing?

What happens is the head stays against the bolt face and the shoulder of the case is driven to the shoulder of the chamber when the cartridge is fired.

Longshot4 is having trouble with understanding what happens when the trigger is pulled. Reloaders are infatuated with head space and moving the shoulder of the case; and I ask "how do you do that?" and all I get in return is lip service.

I have said there is something about the sequence of events that take place after the trigger is pulled reloaders do not understand. Longshot4 said the head of the case was against the bolt face and the shoulder moved forward and I ask; "How can that be, how is that possible? Those that do not know and or understand continue with the lip service and those that do not understand simply say; "I do not know?".

I would think with all the reloaders that claim they have master shooters on speed dial would call an expert. Something like the reloader that called SAAMI and told on me, anyhow, the case does not have head space.

F. Guffey

 

[F. Guffey]

And then there is the 'make your own annealer'. Had I not known there is nothing new about induction heating I would believe, reloaders, thought it was invented/developed last year. I used one to heat metal bar when operating a trip hammer, that heater had to have been made in1910 + or - a few years.Anyhow, I read through 6 pages of 'how to make an annealer' and got an appetency for a new way to use old tools with a timer that cost nothing.

F. Guffey

 

[Longshot4]

This is getting very complex Mr.Guffey. When I asked you to correct me if you see fit. I was wrong to assume you would give a better description of how the head spacing stretches the case in detail of the firing of the round. Not how your heavy firing pin doesn't cause case separation. Here we go again.

Correct me if I'm wrong. But don't get off track. I get confused easy.

If the case is FL sized to a length less than the distance from the bolt when closed too the chamber shoulder or is it datum? "In a 308" The case is expanded do to the pressure of the powder charge in all directions. It's stretched out to the chamber walls, back to the bolt face and forward to the chamber shoulder that acts as a gas check and the neck to the chamber neck walls. So if you resize the case to a shorter length. It will stretch to a longer length. That is what causes (Metal God) to give us a fine picture for reference.

 

[RC20]

What issue did you have with tumbling first? Thats how pretty much eveyone does it. You dont want sand and gunk going into your dies.

Its a waste of time and it makes lubing harder.

I don't dump my cases into the sand, I pick them up after eject and put them in the box. They are as clean as I am.

After sizing I put them in the vibratory machine and it cleans it all up.

One stop cleaning.

And no I don't have case scratches .

If it was so bad as to need tumbling in the first place its too gross to use.

And pray tell do you clean all that sand and crud out of your tumbler and of you brass before you resizes. Microscopic stuff is on the case so you have to wipe or air blast it off.

Of course you have to be sure the towel is clean.

 

[Metal god]

I buy once fired cases from my local range . They come incredibly dirty . They often are very tarnished with rocks ,twigs and other smaller cases inside them .

These cases "MUST" be cleaned before any prep work starts . I get what you're saying RC20 and I have on more then a few occasions skipped tumbling before sizing my own once fired cases because they never hit the ground and are still pretty clean .

That said there are plenty of reasons why one would need to tumble cases before doing anything else with them . Lets not act like there's no reason for this step at times .

 

[Longshot4]

I agree with Metal God... Salvaged brass requires a good cleaning first.

 

[Longshot4]

I agree with Metal God... Salvaged brass requires a good cleaning first.
Right down to the primer pockets and uniformed pockets.

 

[F. Guffey]

These cases "MUST" be cleaned before any prep work starts . I get what you're saying RC20 and I have on more then a few occasions skipped tumbling before sizing my own once fired cases because they never hit the ground and are still pretty clean .

R. Lee in his book on modern reloading has a section of case cleaning. I do not agree but according to him it is not necessary to clean brass before sizing.

I am the fan of having nothing between the case and chamber but air, I do not want a lot of air but the air between the chamber and case must be clean; no matter how much effort is put into cleaning cases the firing range is not a clean environment and the case is embeddable meaning anything that is between the case and chamber is embedded into the case when fired.

I do not want my cases sliding in the chamber with embedded dirt, grit and grime, I do not want all of that embedded dirt, grit and grime taking the shiny finish from the inside of my dies so I choose to have nothing between the case and chamber but air, that goes for my dies also, I want clean air and lube when sizing.

Back in the old days of wagon trains they kept a bucket of greases on the side of the wagon, the worst thing that could happen to the grease is to leave the lid off of the bucket because the environment around that wagon and wheels turning stirred up a lot of dirt, grit and sand. And then there were brakes, wagons had two types.

F. Guffey

 

[Reloader270]

My 270Win leave this same mark on cases after the first reload. Some of the cases has been reloaded 10 times and case head separation had not appear. I have done the paperclip test several times and there is no indent on the inside.

 

[F. Guffey]

This is getting very complex Mr.Guffey

If the case is FL sized to a length less than the distance from the bolt when closed too the chamber shoulder or is it datum? "In a 308" The case is expanded do to the pressure of the powder charge in all directions. It's stretched out to the chamber walls, back to the bolt face and forward to the chamber shoulder that acts as a gas check and the neck to the chamber neck walls. So if you resize the case to a shorter length. It will stretch to a longer length. That is what causes (Metal God) to give us a fine picture for reference.

In that case we get stretching along with thinning of the case as metal god shows in his picture.
The stretching of the cases from metal god's picture are from excess head space I believe. What happens is the head stays against the bolt face and the shoulder of the case is driven to the shoulder of the chamber when the cartridge is fired. If the gap is more than 0.002-3K That's where the case will stretch and if continues case will separate. That's where you want to just bump the shoulder 0.002-3K when Full Length sizing.

The first time around you start with "What happens"' the case head is against the bolt face and the shoulder moves, the case is driven forward. I have said many times if the case head is against the bolt face and the shoulder 'MOVES forward and then there is nothing after that because that is not what happens.

I said I chambered a round in a rifle and pulled the trigger, after pulling the trigger I said the shoulder did not move even thought the shoulder of the case was .127" from the shoulder of the chamber... According to reloaders a case will not stretch .127" without case head separation. Reloaders everywhere say head space is the cause of case head separation and then I said there has to be something about the sequence of events between pulling the trigger and the bullet leaving the barrel reloaders do not understand.

I took the time to paste your quotes from two different responses, the two quotes are different. My opinion; ever reloaders on this forum should have noticed.

It took me many years to eventually understand it all. That is if I do.

Longshot4, have MG explain it to you. You said the shoulder moved, I ask "How is that possible?", I ask because you said the case head was against the bolt face.

Case head separation: I have managed to destroy cases in a 30/40 Crag, the rifle was part of an inheritance. After testing the rifle I had the new owner promised me he would not fire the rifle. A smith in Colorado sent me a receiver; problem, replacing the receiver on a rifle your grandfather left you would not be the same rifle.

F. Guffey