IS there a difference between TFL women and "average" women?

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Glamdring

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CindyH suggested starting another thread in response to my question about trying to change the conditioning that most women have "to be nice". In conection to Self Defense training.

How do you teach someone "not to be food" [as Clint Smith puts it]?

Teaching a proper mindset is sometimes difficult with men. But in my experiance I have much more trouble getting women to accept a proper metal outlook and attitude than men.
 
First off, let me say I am sorry for the long post. I try to keep them brief, but this one is huge, and I apologize.

I wish I were more nice at times and less of a spit fire!! I don’t know how to answer your question. Most women are so naïve to the dangers around them. They were created (first I might add :D ) with genes to protect and nurture those around them. Men were the strong arm, the hunter, the provider. To think that men and women are “equal” is preposterous. We are as different as night and day.

If we all had been born during earlier times, the women knew it was their responsibility to watch the house and the children while the husband was away. She knew if she was going to survive, she might possibly have to kill to protect the lives of her children.

I think women are still protective today when it comes to fighting for their children, but many fail to notice the potential dangers for themselves while alone. I think the thing that helped me the most was reading. Find books with graphic details that explain to the reader what will happen to her if she is left unprotected. I really enjoy John Douglas’ series of books. He is an FBI profiler and digs deep into the mind of serial killers. There are many crime books on the market. Perhaps it will throw more women into reality. I did not have to be forced to read and study about crime and violent nature, I chose to educate myself, but unless you hold an interest in crime, why would you bother buying these books? Buy them for her…Another slap of reality is Court TV. They have many shows of serial killers, FBI Files, and Investigative Reports are two good ones.

I really don’t think there is a woman out there that doesn’t, at one point or another, fear being alone in the home. She may think she hears noises outside or becomes alarmed in one way or another, but outside the home is her greatest risk. I brought this list of ways a woman can safe guard herself over from one of the LEO forums. Perhaps some of these tips can help someone …somewhere.

Stay Safe,
Jessica

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I got this in an email...it is good advice...
Dear friends and family,
Last night I attended a personal safety workshop, and it jolted me. It was given by an amazing man, Pat Malone, who has been a body guard for famous figures like Farrah
Fawcett and Sylvester Stallone. He works for the FBI, and teaches police officers and Navy SEALS hand-to-hand combat. This man has seen it all, and knows a lot. He focused his teachings to us on HOW TO AVOID BEING THE VICTIM OF A VIOLENT CRIME.

Here are some of the most important points that I got out of his presentation:

1. The three reasons women are easy targets for random acts of violence are:

a. Lack of awareness (you MUST know where you are and what's going on around you.)

b. Body language (keep your head up, swing your arms, stand straight up)

c. Wrong place, wrong time (DON'T be walking alone in an alley, or driving in a bad neighborhood at night)

2. Women have a tendency to get into their cars after shopping, eating, working, etc, and just sit (doing their checkbook, or making a list, etc). DONT DO THIS!
A predator could be watching you, and this is the perfect opportunity for him to get in the passenger side, put a gun to your head, and tell you where to go. AS SOON AS YOU GET INTO YOUR CAR, LOCK THE DOORS AND LEAVE.

A few notes about getting into your car in a parking lot, or parking garage:

a. Be aware: look around you, look into your car, at the passenger side floor, and in the back seat. Check under the car as well.

b. If you are parked next to a big van, enter your car from the passenger door. Most serial killers attack their victims by pulling them into their vans while the women are attempting to get into their cars.

c. Look at the car parked on the driver's side of your vehicle, and the passenger side. If a male is sitting alone in the seat nearest your car, you may want to walk back into the mall, or work, and get a guard/
policeman to walk you back out. IT IS ALWAYS BETTER TO BE SAFE THAN SORRY.

3. Always take the elevator instead of the stairs. (Stairwells are horrible places to be alone.)

a. Do not get on an elevator if there is a weirdo already on there. (of course bad men don't always look bad).

b. Do not stand back in the corners of the elevator, be near the front, by the doors, ready to get off or on.

c. If you get on the elevator on the 25th floor, and the Boogie Man gets on at the 22nd, get off when he gets on.

4. If the predator has a gun and you are not under his control, ALWAYS run!

a. POLICE only make 4 of 10 shots when they are in range of 3-9 feet. This is due to stress.

b. The predator will only hit you (a running target) 4 in 100 times. And even then, it most likely WILL NOT be a vital organ. RUN!

5. As women, we are always trying to be sympathetic: STOP IT, it may get you raped, or killed.

Back to women wanting to be the protector thing. ;)

a. Ted Bundy, the serial killer, was a good looking, well-educated man, who ALWAYS played on the sympathies of unsuspecting women. He walked with a cane, or a limp, and often asked "for help" into his vehicle or
with his vehicle, which is when he abducted his next victim.

b. Pat Malone told us the story of his daughter, who came out of the mall and was walking to her car when she noticed 2 older ladies in front of her. Then she saw a police car come towards her with 2 cops, and they said hello. She also noticed that
all 8 handicap spots in the area were empty. As she neared her car she saw a man a few rows over calling to her for help. He wanted her to close his passenger side door. He was sitting in the driver's side, and said he was handicapped. He continued calling, until she turned and headed back to the mall, and then he began cursing at her. She wondered why he didn't ask the 2 older ladies, or the policemen for help, and why he was not parked in any of the empty handicapped
spots. As she got back to the mall, two male
friends of hers were exiting, and as she told them the story and turned to point at the car, a male was getting out of the back seat into the front, and the car sped away.
DON'T GET CAUGHT IN THIS TRAP.

6. Tips to save your life, if you have gotten into a violent situation:

a. REACT IMMEDIATELY: If he abducts you in a parking lot, and is taking you to an abandoned area, DON'T LET HIM GET YOU TO THAT AREA.

1) If you are driving, react immediately in the situation, and crash your car while still
going 5 MPH.

2) If he's driving, find the right time, and
stick your fingers in his eyes. He must
watch the road, so choose an unsuspecting
time, and gouge him. It is your ONLY defense. While he is in shock, GET OUT. (This sounds gross, but think of the alternative if you do not act.)

b. RESIST: don't go along with him: run, if you are able
1) scream
2) you DO NOT want to get to crime scene #2.

C. DON'T EVER GIVE UP!

7. Always keep your distance when walking past strangers on the street or in dark areas.

8. GET A CELL PHONE.
There are packages for $19.95 a month that allow you to program only 911 into the dialing out program (this is for parents who say it is too expensive for their kids to have a cell phone.)

9. BREAK DOWNS: (avoid this by ALWAYS keeping your car in good working order)

a. If your car breaks down: you better have a cell phone to call for help, and lock your doors.

b. Keep a blanket, and a pair of warm clothes and boots, and a flashlight in your car always for emergencies.

c. If you don't have a cell phone: (shame on you)

1) And it's noon on a business day, you MAY want to put your hazards on and walk to safety. If you're on a highway/freeway, stay in your call and lock the doors. Wait for help to arrive. Insist on seeing identification from anyone who stops to help you. If it is not a police officer or highway employee, do not get out of your car. Simply ask for the person to call
911 for you and wait until help arrives.

2) And it's 2 a.m. on the freeway: put on your warm clothes, and lock your doors and put on your emergency/hazard lights. (see additional information in 1) above.)

3) You are a perfect target if you are sitting in your car broken down -- Predators search the highways for easy targets like you.

4) And you're on a desolate road: walk away from the car (in your warm clothes) and go to some bushes, or some area AWAY from your vehicle. It will be cold, and uncomfortable, but you DO NOT want to stay in your car, and there are no psychic boogiemen waiting in the bushes who knew you were going to break down.

10. Physical defenses that can be used against the violent predator:

a. The eyes are the most vulnerable part of the body. Poke him there, and you have (possibly) your only window of opportunity.

b. The neck is also a vulnerable spot, but you MUST know where to grip, AND HAVE THE STRENGTH to cut off his breath.

c. The last place is the KNEES. Everyone's knees are very vulnerable, and a swift kick there will take anyone down

*A cautionary note about these things is that if you do not do these things right the first time, you are a in trouble,
because it will only anger the individual, and that anger will be TAKEN OUT ON YOU. I'm not saying don't attempt them (it may be your only hope), but be forceful when you do.

11. If you are walking alone in the dark (which you shouldn't be) and you find him following/chasing you:

a. Scream "FIRE!", and not "help." People don't want to get involved when people yell "help", but "fire" draws attention because people are nosy.

b. RUN!

c. Find an obstacle, such as a parked car, and run around it, like ring around the rosie. -- This may sound silly, but over the years, 5 women have told Pat Malone that this SAVED THEIR LIVES.

d. Your last hope is getting under the car. Once you are under there, there are tons of things to hold on to, and he will not be able to get you out, and will not come under for you (most likely). Usually they give
up by this point.
-- The catch here is that YOU MUST PRACTICE GETTING UNDER THE CAR. You must have a plan (he will have one); know if you will be going on your back, front, from the side or back of the car. It must be practiced.
And it could save your life.

12. Never let yourself or anyone that you know be a "closer" in any type of business (bar, store, restaurant, gas station*)

*Pat knew Danielle, who was the girl from Chesterland that just died from being shot point-blank by some kids while she was closing at the local gas station. Pat talked with her the night before she died, and asked whether it ever scared her to close alone. She said yes, but said, "I'll
be alright, Pat. I'll be alright." She wasn't.


I didn't mean to scare you with any of this, but honestly, I hope it did. It should. Our world is not as safe as we pretend that it is, and living in our fantasy worlds WILL
get us in trouble, sooner or later. "It won't happen to me" doesn't cut it, and is a bogus expectation anyway. Pat Malone said again and again that the women who die EVERY MINUTE from violent crimes expected to go to bed tonight, and get up tomorrow, and do it all over again, and again, and again.
No one expects it, but we must be prepared and aware so that we HAVE A PLAN.

I would encourage you to pass this on to all women, not just your friends and family, but everybody. We all need to hear it.

Originally Posted by Badgeman on Officer.Com


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Shooter's Enrichment

[This message has been edited by LadydeeJ (edited May 10, 2000).]
 
I think it's luck of the draw as far as who you can convert and who you can't. There are just some folks that absolutely will not listen - even with a rapist standing over them at the time - they have been programmed to submit. For the good of society of course.

Here's an important angle to this delimma - remember that nowadays there are far fewer strong male role models for women to be influenced by. Think about it, how may men do you all know that wouldn't lift a feather duster to defend themselves or their family? There are many. I see the posts from many of you every day about these sniveling spineless "men". These same "men" are influencing women on a daily basis.

Women can be greatly influenced by a man's (a real one) attitude towards self defense. How many of you have been around or involved with a "non-defense oriented" woman only to farily quickly have her see the light? It seem to be quite a common story here at TFL. That's not a coincidence to say the least. I have been around female aquaintences who seemed to be, and were, pacifists. After a short well placed conversation with me - and after they make the decison to ignore what they have been programmed with by society - they quickly come over to our side.

Invironmental influence is critical here. Who are these womwn exposed to on a daily basis? Under what mindset were they raised as childen? This is a very complicated topic and I hope to see more responses to this thread.

Sandy, I know you'll have a good response to this thread.

CMOS

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GOA, TSRA, LEAA, NRA, SAF and I vote!
 
Lady Deej had some great information above.

What I can say on the subject is this: I have taken a lot of crap in my lifetime for not being ladylike. I have been "this way" since I was born. I'm stubborn, opinionated, aggressive, demanding, you name it. But no one -- NO ONE -- is going to take advantage of me! If I were a man, no one would think twice about my personality. But, because I'm a woman, suddenly I'm "domineering," or some less printable term.

I'm not as worried about the boogie man in the elevator as I am about the boogie man I invite into my home or vow to spend my life with. Too many women "nice" their way into relationships with abusive, controlling men, or alcoholics, outlaws or cheating scum. Then they're too "nice" to leave, and the rest of us have to listen to them whine ad nauseam about how badly they're treated. Even bringing up their responsibility to their children doesn't make a dent in their Nice Girl Denial Armor. You'd think they would care enough to spare the child to whom they gave life from suffering the same abuse -- but go figure.

As long as women are encouraged to go for the flowered church dress, picket fence, house in the suburbs myth and "stand by your man" no matter what, some of them will be foolish enough to stick with it regardless of how miserable that man makes them. For those sheepettes, there's no hope. The best the rest of us can do is cut them loose and move on.

Victim Mentality is Victim Mentality. I can't offer sisterhood to someone who would sell out freedom for a washer-dryer set and a minivan. If they don't want to be helped, let them stay as they are.

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*quack*
 
**One has to love oneself enough to believe that your person is inviolate.**

If one doesn't start with the willingness to take action to keep yourself safe, there is nothing that can be done.
 
I was out playing in the dirt when I remembered another important note, then I’ll shut up. :)

I wish I could recall which book it was in, but anyway…Most families safe guard their home at night, but the majority of women are attacked in their home in broad daylight. After, hubby has gone to work. Pretty smart planning on the rapist part. We may think rapist are mental cases for their sick actions, but as sick as they may seem, most of them are very intelligent.

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Shooter's Enrichment
 
Lady D, funny you should say that, right now there is a rapist in my neighborhood. He is dressed as a cop and knocking on womens doors during the day when the husband isn't home. He makes his way in and rapes them. He has hit three homes, not caught still on the loose. Obviously he hasn't hit a home where someone was armed. Ok Im obviously not armed yet but after hearing this yesterday I've got a nice little setup should he decide to pick this house :D I also made it a point to call my friend who says I don't need a gun, and filled him in on whats going on here. He didn't say nothing but not to answer the door. Sorry not going to be a caged animal here.

Anyway, Lady D has GREAT information there, good job! I think it starts how you are raised that has got to be a big factor. Although we didn't have guns in our house I can remember being about 5 and Dad teaching me to punch and kick if someone were hurting me. I clearly remember him saying "C'mon give it all you got', hit dad in the wrong place and he said I'll do just fine :D. That's all fine and dandy but at a few points in life that thought slipped away. I honestly never even thought twice about protecting myself with a gun, no one in our family did so why should I? I grew up with mostly guys and not one of them ever encouraged me to be aware or get a weapon to protect myself. After hearing over and over that it just can't happen to me I started to believe it. I could get into a major story about high school here but I really don't want to. Point is something happened, I told my Dad and he bought me mace. I signed up for a self defense class at my high school and learned more there then I ever did. Still never thought of a gun though, plus I was underage so maybe that had something to do with it. From that point on anytime someone tried to hurt me or hurt me I always fought back, even if I lost, I would still fight. So that attitude stayed with me all the time. Now that I've gotten over that fear of guns, I feel a gun is the best means of protection. Had I not been so afraid of guns in the past I would have had one alot earlier in life. I think those women who are not willing to protect themselves have their heads in the clouds thinking nothing is going to happen to them. They think they will just beat the guy up and he will run away. They don't realize that their attacker can be/will be 10 times stronger and bigger than them. Maybe at that point they will change their minds about having a gun, but then its already too late.

I think women get so occupied in other things that self defense doesn't even come to mind. They have that 'it can't happen to me attitude' they listen to all the lies and figure a gun is evil, they are thinking that the gun will be pointed at them, not the other way around. Some women just don't see a gun as means of self defense. Even the self defense classes don't teach you the option of having a gun, they tell you to kick your way out of a situation. Many anti women go to these classes and karate classes thinking they will be able to take care of the BG on their own, maybe some will but I bet most of them won't. If a guy can beat up another big guy why on earth would he be afraid of some little female kicking at him? He is going to laugh, grab your leg throw you down, now your stuck. I think self defense classes should include firearm training, it is not forcing anyone to own a gun but it would give a better understanding to these women. They think guns are just for men and bad guys, they don't realize it could save their life. The instructors are taking the fear of bad guys out of them, why not take the fear of guns out as well?

These million misinformed moms are just that, misinformed. They aren't educated about guns that is quite obvious. Obviously no one bothered to show them different. I actually feel sorry for them, one day ONE of those mothers marching WILL be a victim and I can bet the entire attitude will change. Its sad that it has to take a situation to see the other side.

Like CindyH said in the other thread, if a bad guy sees a woman all psycho towards him waving a gun he WILL be afraid as opposed to the women that blubbers and begs him not to hurt her. I think it has to do with attitude, either you want it to happen to you or your not going to LET it happen to you. I am NOT going to let some scumbag make his way into MY house and do what he pleases, no way! I also think of my daughter and God help me if someone were to try and hurt her or worse yet rape her, they would never see the light of day again. They make their choice to be a bad guy, I've made my choice to do what it takes to stop it.


Attitude, education, and awareness. After all that babbling I could have just said that huh? :) I'm not really sure how you can teach these women not to be food. I am working on my Mom and my sister and its like talking to a brick wall. I am going to try the approach of having them read some stories of women that were raped in their own home, and be sure to point out that these women thought it could never happen to them and if it did they were prepared. I think something needs to hit close to home for them to open their eyes. As lame as this sounds, Lifetime for women has some excellent stories of women being raped, they are some scary stories. It does make you think after seeing some of them. Plus they are all true stories so this is not a hollywood script, this is real life. Scare them, not to the point of paranoia but enough for them to see it happens everyday and they may just be next. Lets face it though, some women simply would rather just be a victim, we can't change their minds as sad as it is.

My Dad always told me I talk too much :D

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Sandys' Homepage
RKBA forums
We are as one as we all are the same fighting for one cause -Metallica
 
My engagement recently ended due, in part, to my former intended's beginning to make it clear that while she tolerated my love of firearms, she herself might never be capable of acting in self-defense. Well, if she won't defend herself, she might not defend any children. So (and for many other reasons) I said "whoa."

I can only dream of meeting an intelligent, understanding, compassionate woman who's capable of performing a Mozambique drill on some perp attempting an assault. Any such ladies on the TFL?

(Powers that be at TFL: we need a singles forum! Just kidding . . . maybe).

MissD: as a side note, my mother taught me the same thing when it came to defense (got to love a family with strong women). There was a young boy murdered in a public restroom around the time that I was allowed to answer the 'call of nature" on my own. Before I was allowed to go, my mother would quiz me as to the tactical plan: hit him where it hurts, yell for help, and don't stop fighting no matter what.

[This message has been edited by buzz_knox (edited May 10, 2000).]
 
Buzz, it happened to me, it can happen to *anyone*. :D

I don't know as Cindy can Mozambique a goblin, but if she can't, I'll larn her.

Oh yeah, at GT some time ago, we kicked around the idea of a gun-centered singles thing, until I remarked that the ratio would be eleventy-gazillion to one. Kinda shot down that fantasy quickly-like.
 
From Kipling's "The Female of The Species"...

When the early Jesuit fathers preached to Hurons and Choctaws,
The prayed to be delivered from the vengence of the squaws.
'Twas the woman, not the warriors, turned those stark enthusiasts pale.
For the female of the species is more deadly than the male.

Man's timid heart is bursting with the things he must not say,
For the Woman that God gave him isn't his to give away;
But when hunter meets with husbands, each confirms the other's tale--
The female of the species is more deadly than the male.

...

But the Woman that God gave him, every fibre of her frame
Proves her launched for one sole issue, armed and engined for the same;
And to serve that single issue, lest the generations fail,
The female of the species must be deadlier than the male.

She who faces Death by torture for each life beneath her breast
May not deal in doubt or pity--must not swerve for fact or jest.
These be purely male diversions--not in her honour dwells.
She the Other Law we live by, is that Law and nothing else.

She can bring no more to living than the powers that make her great
As the Mother of the Infant and the Mistress of the Mate.
And when Babe and Man are lacking and she strides unclaimed to claim
Her right as femme (and baron), her equipment is the same.

She is wedded to convictions--in default of grosser ties;
Her contentions are her children, Heaven help him who denies!--
He will meet no sauve discussion, but the instant, white-hot, wild,
Wakened female of the species warring as for spouse and child.

Unprovoked and awful charges--even so the she-bear fights,
Speech that drips, corrodes, and poisons--even so the cobra bites,
Scientific vivisection of one nerve till it is raw
And the victim writhes in anguish--like the Jesuit with the squaw!

So it comes that Man, the coward, when he gathers to confer
With his fellow-braves in council, dare not leave a place for her
Where at war with Life and Conscience, he uplifts his erring hands
To some God of Abstract Justice--which no woman understands.

...
And She knows, because She warns him, and Her instincts never fail,
That the Female of Her Species is more deadly than the Male.
 
Coinneach

I may have solved that problem for myself. A friend of mine came into town and had mentioned she wanted a concealed carry permit. I took her to the range and she enjoyed it (far cry from my ex who only tolerated such things). She didn't care for the Glock or Sig (too bulky in her small hands and the DA trigger got her). What she liked was . . . a cocked and locked Mustang! Okay, so it's .380 but she likes Condition 1. Be still, my heart.
 
Miss D,

Good point about guns. They cannot replace willingness or awareness, but they can "equalize".

Two Sundays ago, I was sparring with a 190 lb-ish ex-Special Forces/longtime martial artist friend (I still have a huge bruse on my shin). Now, I believe that I could defeat him hand-to-hand if fortune smiles on me- but I've been dedicatedly training for six years! I would expect few people of either sex to be able to prevale against such an assailant with physical force alone. If you're willing to get the training and practice, get a gun!

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If ignorance is bliss, then knock the smile off my face!
 
Count me as one-a the lucky ones! My sweetie has developed a serious 1911 addiction. If only I could convince her it's safe to carry it in condition 1, not 2 (? mag inserted, hammer down on empty chamber). "No, seriously, darlin'. John Browning DESIGNED it that way."

Gotta larn her the Mozambique drill too...
 
Ok one more thing. :D Sandy, you do not have to open your door for a cop if you believe he may not be what he claims. Open your window and talk to him from a safe distance. Find out his badge number. If he persists that you open the door, call the police station and find out why he is there. The same goes if you are in a car. Pull to a safe well lit area if you have reason to believe he is not a cop. Serial killers target highways and can also pose as police officers. Still leery? Use your cell phone in your car.

Women have a keen sense of perception and danger...use the talents you have.

I liked your post William. :)

[This message has been edited by LadydeeJ (edited May 10, 2000).]
 
I have to inject a short story here about Terri and the last gun show that is topical and I think will be appreciated.
A little background is in order first. Prior to meeting me Terri, while not anti, was afraid of guns and knew very little about them.
On Sunday morning before the doors opened to the public at the gun show last weekend a man came by the table wanting to sell a gun. It was a NIB High Standard .22, stainless with two magazines and absolutely beautiful. I was still half asleep and simply passed on it. Immediately after he walked away from the table she started talking about the gun and asking if it was a good price. I had missed how much he was asking for it.:rolleyes: She told me he had said $200. I asked if she wanted it and she was out of her chair like a shot and after him. (No pun intended;)) He had already sold it three tables down. She spent the rest of the day alternating between cursing and pouting. She had wanted it to begin her own collection, but not knowing gun pricing yet had not spoken up. I guess I will have to start paying better attention at shows now. Just because it isn't a gun I want doesn't mean it is something she isn't interested in. The one draw back. Having two gun nuts.......er...I mean enthusiast in the house is going to get expensive.;)

Attitude, education and awareness. I like that Sandy. I wish more people would practice that in all aspects of their lives.
 
H&R single barrel break-open 12ga.
$79.00 at Walmart and Kmart.
Easy to use, hard to screw up, and has plenty of stopping power.
 
Thanks for all the good responses :D
I am adding the hide under a car to my list of techniques!!!

I will add a couple techniques that I teach to women. First, I found that even though active in martial arts and weight lifting. Against a really strong person, I couldn't apply wrist locks properly, so I started using a one or two finger peel. I usually grabb two fingers because they are less likely to break and give a better lever to exscape.

That and I also teach the basic principal of going against the thumbs. I have four younger sisters. And at least one of them used those exscape techinques sucessfully when wrestling with a boyfriend [in fun only]. He was no real martial artist but had wrestled in HS and we lifted weights together on occasion...so I felt it was a fair test of those two techniques.

[This message has been edited by Glamdring (edited May 11, 2000).]
 
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