Is the 5.56 Nato dead?

When a groundpounder is complaining that his 5.56 won't penetrate a mud hut to kill the enemies that are inside then we have a serious thinking problem.
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Not really. That's why we also give him access to an AT-4, SMAW, M203 firing HEDP, etc.

Besides which, as STLRN has stated, the "mud huts" we're talking about in the real world have walls several feet thick -- an AK won't get the job done either, nor will a 7.62x51 battle rifle. I know guys who've been on the receiving end of both 12.7mm DShK and 14.5mm KPV rounds behind those walls in Afghanistan and those rounds came up short against Afghan adobe. Expecting a handheld rifle or carbine to do what a heavy machinegun can't do is not a "thinking problem," it is simply unreasonable and unrealistic.
 
SAW THIS ON THE R-15 thread

(And a footnote: Popularity of the .223 seems to have gone into the stratosphere. The Remington ammo guys told me that production of .223 ammo has quadrupled over the past 4 years, and that of every three rounds of centerfire ammo they produce, one is a .223. And very little of that is going to the military. Someone is shooting all them black guns.)
 
Not much I can do here but reiterate what everyone else (including myself) has said. The 6.8 Remington SPC, while a superb assault rifle cartridge, will never be adopted due to logistical reasons.

Another way to view this is that it is much in the same boat as 10mm auto, or any other modern cartridge. They are a step sideways, not improvements, over current platforms. Yes, it is more powerful than 9mm but you get less magazine capacity. Yes, it is flatter shooting than 45ACP, but it recoils too much for all but the most determined shooter.

Otherwise, we'd all be shooting 10mm in out handguns and 6.8SPC in our rifles.
 
(And a footnote: Popularity of the .223 seems to have gone into the stratosphere. The Remington ammo guys told me that production of .223 ammo has quadrupled over the past 4 years, and that of every three rounds of centerfire ammo they produce, one is a .223. And very little of that is going to the military. Someone is shooting all them black guns.)
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the irony is probably that the fear of another ban is driving much of that popularity.:D
 
I never saw a moment of downtime where a fast mover wasn't available for immediate CAS.
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I would have to disagree, even when working with organic MAGTF air. It is not always available, or even able to response faster than 30 minutes. If you have allot of X-CAS on the ATO or have established a CAS stack, than maybe 5-10 minutes from the time the immediate air request goes out you will get it. However, our blue brother suited brothers who are the normal CFACCs hate putting X-CAS on the ATO because they think it is a waste of air sorties. When you take into account the crew day, crew rest and maintenance, not to mention the ATO cycle. It does not aways work out that the air is there. I kind of sucks that you didn't know the battle was going to happen 48-72 ago to put in a JTAR to get something on the ATO cycle. So you will have to wait for someone on strip alert or get a diverted mission, and as my best friend the F/A-18 driver says you cannot stay at even 30 minute strip for too long because of the discomfort of the G-suit and harness, so chances are you won't have someone at 10-15 minute strip alert when you need it.

Also when you throw in the recent development in which only "school qualified" controllers are going to get Blue air, their are chances that even if the CAS is up, the air mission commander may not feel "comfortable" dropping on an emergency danger close mission and you won't get the fires. I actually had this happen to me because I was not current on my JTAC quals and the mud hen driver decided not to drop on a danger close TIC I was trying to get him to make a run in on. I was able to get a Marine to do an in extremis LMAV shot, but that is because our pilots are more use to getting that type of mission.
 
Heck the 7.62 *54R round might still be in service
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Oh ya, in fact I have plenty of friends over there blowing piles of captured arms with ev ery type of Mosin Nagants, PU snipers, and plenty of dragunovs/SVDs. The round is still in use to armies that still field those dragunovs, which are many. They are finding and blowing plenty of that ammo too. It's the longest serving currently fielded round.
 
Eventually the 5.56 round will be replaced. It is only a matter of time and technology until something better comes along. Changes are always on-going so change is inevitable. People who say that the 7.62 X 39 is not applicable to AR-15 format have not heard about the AR-47 or the SR-47 rifles developed by Knight Armaments for the Navy SEALS. Sure, it was a brief experiment but Olympic Arms and Bushmaster have NOT given up on producing AR-15 rifles that use the 7.62 X 39 bullet. Both Bushmaster and Olympic Arms make AR-15 rifles even today that use the 7.62 X 39 cartridge. Sooner or later somebody will marry up a 120-140 grain bullet in about a .270 diameter rifle that has a case of about 40 to 45 millimeter long, sort of like the present 6.8 SPC, and it'll sweep the world because of its better performance in combat, accuracy and hunting. The 6.5 Grendel is a close one but I don't think that the shape of the cartridge is endearing itself to most shooters. It's accuracy is legendary but right now prices and other factors have just not allowed it to take off running. It is tottering with its first steps so we will have to see if this baby grows up and becomes accepted.
 
It is axiomatic....

That the Military is always prepared to fight the last war. And here, last means the previous one. Part of the reason for this is the natural time lag between new ideas being recognised as worthwhile and the fielding of the actual equipment and tactics to implement the new concepts. Another reason is the natural human tendency to retain what is known and proven to work.

And then there is money. Money that democratic govts will virtually always spend on anything other than the military, if given the chance. Kings and tyrants can spend their money on their military pretty much as they please, but democracies and republics don't, and won't as long as can get away with it, or think they can.

In the past century, combat has occurred in every kind of terrain on earth, and technology has become the dominant factory driving the changing tactics to modern combat. Fixed ammunition and repeating breechloaders basically drove muzzleloaders out well before the 1800s were over, ending an era in military thinking that had gone unchanged for centuries. The next watershed is WW I, and the dominance of the machinegun. It was the machinegun that made the trench warfare of WW I so costly in terms of lives. Artillery played its part, but trenches and artillery had been around for quite a while (even if not as efficient), and even sieges, but the static trench warfare of WW I was due to the effectiveness of the machinegun holding troops in the killing zone for arty, as well as the machine guns themselves. WW I made such an impression on certain military thinkers that when the technology became available, the Blitzkrieg was born. WWII validated the concept, and refined it to the combined arms doctrine we endorse today. Along the way we have rejected a number of weapons as not being "useful" in modern combat, and accepted others, without anything more than the pet theory of the day to base the decision on. That and politics, one of the biggest components of which is money.

The 5.56mm round (no matter what you think of it) is not dead, and not going to die in the foreseeable future, simply because of the tremendous investment we have made in it over the last 4 decades. Same thing may be said about the AR rifles. Even if something demonstrably superior is developed, unless it is a quantum leap forward, it will not be adoped as a general issue item for the simple reasons of cost and inertia. The best thing for the troops, in terms of effectiveness downrange will always take a backseat to what currently works and is already in their hands, until enough people in power change their minds. And that don't happen very often, even today.
 
Oh ya, in fact I have plenty of friends over there blowing piles of captured arms with ev ery type of Mosin Nagants, PU snipers, and plenty of dragunovs/SVDs. The round is still in use to armies that still field those dragunovs, which are many. They are finding and blowing plenty of that ammo too. It's the longest serving currently fielded round.
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Dragunovs and Moisin-Nagants are kind of footnotes compared to the main consumer of 7.62x54 -- the PK machinegun, which is pretty near being as ubiquitous in the LMG role as the AK is in the assault rifle role. Great design, too.
 
Although the US never signed the Hague Accord we tend to abide by it. Since we declared war on terrorism, but the groups involved do not abide by the Geneva Convention nor the Hague Accord then we should be able to use soft points and hollow points on them bastages. How often do we use a 50 cal or higher projectile on them arsewipes? I laughed my arse off everytime we deployed to the war zone. We were told to engage the enemy according to current ROE and LOAC. All I know is a dead jihadist pose no threat to my unit. I don't care if we drop an anti armor bomb on his head, dead is dead. josh
 
Across the pond in Vietnam we use to say "kill or be killed, what ever it takes". But of course, we did not have the press on our @ss every time we passed gas. Get the press out and get the job done! There was never room for a camera man on our choppers or trucks, we needed the space for ammo, medical supplies, water and C-rations. Get my drift.........:cool:
 
Frankly 5.56 or 6.8, think about it, is it worth millions to say we now have a bullet that has 1.24mm more of diameter and weighs like 40-50gr more? The 5.56mm is fine, alot of people think it doesn't have good stopping power but truth is alot of our troops are shooting the heavier grain bullets because of the urban/CQC enviroment, 77 grain bullets are common amongst M4 and M16 toting service men that have scopes equipped. Imgaine if all of our troops were shooting 90 grain hollow point? That would take care of the knockdown/kill problem. Some of you might say, well the 90 grain would have velocity around 2500 fps only, hell that is still about 200 fps faster than the lightest 123gr 7.62x39 loads. Slower moving bigger bullets are better at energy transfer to there target because they don't whiz through like razors, they slowly enter and the weight of the bullet causes the momentum to cause energy transfer. Ask yourself this, then I'll STFU, would you rather be hit by a 125gr FMJ .357mag going 1400FPS or a 230gr JHP going 800FPS at a distance from muzzle to contact of 15 yards?
 
I got this not long after 2003 so it could be antiquated.

The problems with the M4 has less to do with the 5.56 round as it has to do with barrel length.
Afghanistan has longer range combat and the short barreled M4 was inadequate.
The longer barreled version of the M16 is capable to handle the distances encountered.
I read some discussion about bringing back the M-14 or even the Garand. There has also been some suggestion about adding another sniper rifle to a squad.
I've spoken with Afghanistan/Iraq vets and many of them indicated that the longer barrel would have been helpful.

BTW the infantry weapon that made the most kills was the mortar.

Here's one of the articles I've referenced
http://www.geocities.com/equipmentshop/21stcenturyrifle.htm
 
All F-14's, which were recently retired, are slated to be completely destroyed.
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I think he was talking about the still flying Iranian F14s. They did a really good job against Iraqi fighters during the Iraq/Iran war, but they only have about 26 of them still serviceable, according to reports. While that may be a problem to some airforces, the US has an airforce that would easily overwhelm the Iranians, even if they lost a few fighters in the process as acceptable casualities of war.
 
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