NoSecondBest
New member
The S&W 40cal is still the #3 selling handgun cartridge in the U.S. Going to one gun show and not seeing any for sale doesn't have much significance, if any. Go to sales data and see what you find.
Is the 40 done?
- Thread starter Creek Henry
- Start date
Armed_Chicagoan
New member
If you reload .40 is one of the most versatile calibers there is, especially for a semi-auto. For that reason, IMHO, it will be around for a very long time. You can load it light, you can load it hot, and you have an incredibly wide range of bullet weights to choose from. 9mm is a great round for its intended use but it has nowhere near the versatility of .40. And the only reason police departments are moving away from it is some female recruits have trouble with the recoil.
This might be one reason, but it's not the only reason. Some other reasons:
1. Increased capacity in a given sized platform.
2. Reduced recoil resulting in improved qualification scores. Here's an article from a die-hard .40S&W fan gunwriter who still admits that qualification score improvements when switching from .40S&W to 9mm were "very impressive". These improvements are both in terms of accuracy and speed.
3. Reduced practice/training ammunition costs.
4. Reduced wear on weapons resulting in weapons repair/replacement savings.
http://looserounds.com/2014/09/21/fbi-9mm-justification-fbi-training-division/
TruthTellers
New member
.357 will be around a long time, but .38 I'm starting to wonder about. Sure, I can find brass at the range, I'll check the range log (nobody says I can't) and see what calibers are being shot and about once a week somebody will shoot some, about the same with .40.
The thing about .38 tho is with 9mm snubs starting to become more popular and the ammo for 9mm costing about half what .38 does AND 9mm being more powerful than .38... I'm not so sure .38 is going to remain as popular as it is now.
About the only benefit to .38's is they can be shot in aluminum frames, I'm not sure if 9mm can, pressures are probably too high. What could work around that tho is if lower pressure 9mm revolver ammo was made. I'm not saying a rimmed 9mm Federal type ammo, just standard 9mm case with a lower powder charge that likely wouldn't cycle a slide in a semi auto.
Even in a full size revolver with a long barrel I think 9mm is going to find itself popular for people who don't buy revolvers and just want one to shoot a revolver over a .38 and the ammo that costs twice as much.
I think what keeps the .38 Special alive today isn't so much .38 revolvers, it's .357 revolvers.
Quote.
If you reload .40 is one of the most versatile calibers there is, especially for a semi-auto. For that reason, IMHO, it will be around for a very long time. You can load it light, you can load it hot, and you have an incredibly wide range of bullet weights to choose from. 9mm is a great round for its intended use but it has nowhere near the versatility of .40. And the only reason police departments are moving away from it is some female recruits have trouble with the recoil.
_____________________________________________________________
Working for Glock of GA, I sold 6,000 Glocks, in .40 Calibre. To Toronto Police Dept. I wanted them to go to 9mm! My reasons. (9mm was being loaded by a
Canadian military conglomerate, IVI. for one reason) and as I tried to convince the Deputy Police Chief I was working with, the Orientals and small statued Lady Police Officers would hit better with 9mm than the .40.
Someone wanted .45 ACP as a pick, in the Training Staff. Not allowed under Ontario Provincial edict! So .40 was the closest second.
The argument used, in shooting .40 against 9mm, with the above group, the statement was that group, shot the .40 better, more accurate, than the 9mm!
My argument that a .40 Cal with a 180g projectile traveling at the same velocity as 125g 9mm must kick (recoil) more than the 9mm! Especially as the Glock pistols were much lighter than the traditional constructed S&W and Colt handguns. Went nowhere, as the Dep. Chief could not argue with his Training Dept.
The cost difference in Training and carry rounds was huge, between .40 and 9mm. Plus the .40 had to be purchased from the US. In US dollars! With any slow down in supply, caused by the ebb and flow of supply and demand.
If you reload .40 is one of the most versatile calibers there is, especially for a semi-auto. For that reason, IMHO, it will be around for a very long time. You can load it light, you can load it hot, and you have an incredibly wide range of bullet weights to choose from. 9mm is a great round for its intended use but it has nowhere near the versatility of .40. And the only reason police departments are moving away from it is some female recruits have trouble with the recoil.
_____________________________________________________________
Working for Glock of GA, I sold 6,000 Glocks, in .40 Calibre. To Toronto Police Dept. I wanted them to go to 9mm! My reasons. (9mm was being loaded by a
Canadian military conglomerate, IVI. for one reason) and as I tried to convince the Deputy Police Chief I was working with, the Orientals and small statued Lady Police Officers would hit better with 9mm than the .40.
Someone wanted .45 ACP as a pick, in the Training Staff. Not allowed under Ontario Provincial edict! So .40 was the closest second.
The argument used, in shooting .40 against 9mm, with the above group, the statement was that group, shot the .40 better, more accurate, than the 9mm!
My argument that a .40 Cal with a 180g projectile traveling at the same velocity as 125g 9mm must kick (recoil) more than the 9mm! Especially as the Glock pistols were much lighter than the traditional constructed S&W and Colt handguns. Went nowhere, as the Dep. Chief could not argue with his Training Dept.
The cost difference in Training and carry rounds was huge, between .40 and 9mm. Plus the .40 had to be purchased from the US. In US dollars! With any slow down in supply, caused by the ebb and flow of supply and demand.
silvermane_1
New member
The 40 S&W is far from dead, in fact it should be said that any caliber that you can get brass for, isn't dead.
Increased capacity in same sized pistol? Yes, my G17 holds 17rds in the mag, and my new, police surplus G22 holds 15rds.
But ya know, I was pretty happy with 13rds in the Browning HiPowers I carried for years, and having a six shot 357mag GP100 on my hip does not make me feel underarmed.
Pretty funny that a poster above provided a link to an American Rifleman article by Wiley Clapp to support the conclusion that 9mm’s are easier to shoot...
The title of that article is “the .40 is still better than the 9mm”...
But ya know, I was pretty happy with 13rds in the Browning HiPowers I carried for years, and having a six shot 357mag GP100 on my hip does not make me feel underarmed.
Pretty funny that a poster above provided a link to an American Rifleman article by Wiley Clapp to support the conclusion that 9mm’s are easier to shoot...
The title of that article is “the .40 is still better than the 9mm”...
When it comes to defense purposes, everyone agrees...
shot placement > bullet size/weight
Folks in both camps seem willing to admit that...
people who can place shots well with 9mm > people who can place shots well with .40
Why does it then seem impossible for some folks to accept that, for defense purposes...
people who shoot 9mm > people who shoot .40
So yes: Civilians, police departments, and armed bureaus/armed forces are more likely to select it.
It doesn't hurt that it's a cost cutter as well.
Maybe, in some analysis, the .40S&W is "better." But it's probably not enough better to tilt the scales.
These debates would be so much more fruitful if folks would specify the capacity in which something is better instead of just doggedly asserting that it is. When they do that, what I hear is, "I like it more, and I want more people to agree with me!"
shot placement > bullet size/weight
Folks in both camps seem willing to admit that...
people who can place shots well with 9mm > people who can place shots well with .40
Why does it then seem impossible for some folks to accept that, for defense purposes...
people who shoot 9mm > people who shoot .40
So yes: Civilians, police departments, and armed bureaus/armed forces are more likely to select it.
It doesn't hurt that it's a cost cutter as well.
Maybe, in some analysis, the .40S&W is "better." But it's probably not enough better to tilt the scales.
These debates would be so much more fruitful if folks would specify the capacity in which something is better instead of just doggedly asserting that it is. When they do that, what I hear is, "I like it more, and I want more people to agree with me!"
scoobysnacker
New member
well, yes and no.
As far as I know, nobody's manufacturing and selling new pistols in 9x18 Makarov in the US. I don't think they ever did, to be honest. But due to the high numbers of surplus Eastern Bloc pistols imported, I can find it on the shelf at Academy and one of the larger gun shops in my city; in cheap range FMJ both steel and brass, and I've bought Hornady JHP in person too. In brass, I see it in Fiocchi, PPU and GECO. That's a caliber that shouldn't really even be around, as it was never sold commercially... but the guns are extremely reliable, solid, and in the case of the CZ 82 at least, quite nice.
Regarding the .32 acp; yes, it's primarily a caliber for older pistols, as is the .25. But Beretta puts out the neat little Tomcat and Bobcat lines, and those sell out when they show up. I discovered this by shooting one at the range once, and fell in love to the point of buying a Bobcat in .22lr. And yeah, as you say, used. But I buy everything used, guns and cars. Unlike cell phones, both guns and cars will last and function at peak level with basic maintenance far beyond the buying period.
I think the problem with .40's is, there really isn't a flagship pistol that you want one of, that "must" be in .40.
I mean, you see fullsize 1911's, they can be in any caliber, but the standard is .45 acp. The majority are.
CZ, Sig, Beretta, Hi Power, S&W, and I suspect Glock and the XD's etc; they make great guns, and you want one of those... but the standard is 9mm. I don't identify any of those on sight and think 40.
l think that phrase comes from the sales and marketing department. And, you know, their job is selling things. And when people stop buying what they are selling, then THEY are in trouble.
"people" are obviously the target market, but what people?, or is it everyone, overall? What is "stop buying"? does it mean you didn't sell even a single unit? (which, I would agree is stopped buying) or is it because your sales missed their expected level? And, by how much? 3%? 10?, 25? I make a distinction between "slow down" and "stopped". Don't think there's a difference? then just slow down for a red light....
And, just what does "in trouble" mean? Sales of new guns is a yardstick to measure with, but its only ONE yardstick. And, one needs to take into account that sales of new guns is neither a flat steady stable state, nor is it an ever upward slope on a sales graph.
Is the .40 done? Well, for me, not only is it done, it never got started. I'm not the military, I'm not the police, my priorities are different then theirs. I've never bought a .40, or a 10mm. None of them offer me anything useful that I don't already have covered by something else. It is a matter of supreme indifference to me, if some other people shoot better/faster with gun A in caliber X than they do with gun B, or gun A in caliber Y.
I also think its not accurate to judge the current popularity of a caliber by how many people shoot it at your local range, and leave their brass behind.
J.G. Terry
New member
Being a gun junky these thing work differently. If I find an interesting self-loader it would be a temptation regardless of the calibers we are discussing. When we go though the caliber dances the old one is a failure. The new favored caliber can stop speeding trains and jump over tall buildings. That's the dance. You will see the dance again. Some notable agency will dump the 9's and pickup whatever then the dance starts all over again. Hope the FBI does not go to the 8mm Nambu.
It's already been shown, in this thread (and many other places), that the 40 S&W is far from dead or even dying. In every list of the top 5 or 10 most popular centerfire handgun calibers by volume of sales in the U.S., the 40 S&W is in that group. It outsells the 357 Mag, the 10mm, 38 Super, 357 Sig and a number of others.
https://www.guns.com/news/2019/06/25/top-5-most-popular-calibers-for-handguns
In the list above it's number 3 after the 9mm and the 45 acp.
In this list it's also number 3...
http://knowledgeglue.com/what-are-the-most-popular-calibers-in-the-us/
On the other hand there has been a decline in sales of the 40 S&W. By possibly up to 30% according to some sources. But there is also a decline in 45acp sales.
https://www.ammunitiontogo.com/lodge/ammo-sales-info/
Price is a big factor here as is the overall shootability of the mild 9mm. It also goes hand in hand with the rise in the opinion that a handgun calibers power is not as critical a factor as previously thought in defensive shooting.
This isn't new. Since at least 1986 the 9mm has led sales of ammo and of semis in the U.S. The 40 S&W rose very rapidly in the 1990s to dominate law enforcement sales in the U.S., but not the overall market. In the commercial market (not LEO or military) the 9mm was dominant in semiautos. The 40 made some head way but fell back as the 40 S&W began to wain in the law enforcement market.
The rapid rise of the 40 S&W in law enforcement was extraordinary and unusual. That rise was fueled by the adoption of the FBI's protocol for bullet penetration and expansion. Something that the 9mm could not reliably do at the time. The 40 could meet the requirements in the same sized gun (more or less) and so much of law enforcement switched. That only lasted so long.
tipoc
https://www.guns.com/news/2019/06/25/top-5-most-popular-calibers-for-handguns
In the list above it's number 3 after the 9mm and the 45 acp.
In this list it's also number 3...
http://knowledgeglue.com/what-are-the-most-popular-calibers-in-the-us/
On the other hand there has been a decline in sales of the 40 S&W. By possibly up to 30% according to some sources. But there is also a decline in 45acp sales.
https://www.ammunitiontogo.com/lodge/ammo-sales-info/
Price is a big factor here as is the overall shootability of the mild 9mm. It also goes hand in hand with the rise in the opinion that a handgun calibers power is not as critical a factor as previously thought in defensive shooting.
This isn't new. Since at least 1986 the 9mm has led sales of ammo and of semis in the U.S. The 40 S&W rose very rapidly in the 1990s to dominate law enforcement sales in the U.S., but not the overall market. In the commercial market (not LEO or military) the 9mm was dominant in semiautos. The 40 made some head way but fell back as the 40 S&W began to wain in the law enforcement market.
The rapid rise of the 40 S&W in law enforcement was extraordinary and unusual. That rise was fueled by the adoption of the FBI's protocol for bullet penetration and expansion. Something that the 9mm could not reliably do at the time. The 40 could meet the requirements in the same sized gun (more or less) and so much of law enforcement switched. That only lasted so long.
tipoc
scoobysnacker
New member
Yeah, I don't really see how this applies to anything other than the sales department.
Some of us, particularly those that frequent these forums, might continuously add to the collection. But lots of people don't, they get 1-2 handguns, and they're good. Get a Beretta 96, or a Sig P226, as a police trade-in, and you get a fabulous defensive pistol for the nightstand or truck. Just because you're not adding another one yearly (or monthly
) doesn't mean you're done with the caliber, it means you're SET with the caliber. For that group, 40 absolutely isn't dead, it's depended on.Yup. I thought it was ironic/amusing that an author who was very obviously a strong .40S&W supporter still felt the need to include the information about the impressive improvement in qualification scores seen when switching to 9mm in an article meant to show how superior the .40 was.
Well Clapp was being honest. It's been the case for over a century now that scores improve for newer shooters, and some experienced ones, when they shoot the 9mm than when they shoot more powerful rounds like the 40 S&W or the 45. Nothing ironic in that at all if you're being honest.
If you're being honest a fella would also admit that a more powerful round can potentially do more damage. That was Clapp's point.
tipoc
silvermane_1
New member
Don't you have a 10mm mag pistol 44 AMP?