Is some annealing better than none?

more uniform early ignition/case/bullet release.
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so educate me on exactly which properties of the annealing process affects the ignition and the bullet release ?

I know it affects the malleability and the ductility but what do those properties have to do with ignition and bullet release?

I thought ignition had primarily to do with variations in the primer/powder choice/powder fill. I wasn't that making the neck and shoulder a bit softer would affect ignition.

the only study I have seen is this one by AMP

https://www.ampannealing.com/articles/57/annealing-under-the-microscope/

and none of the results showed a consistent ES or vertical POI in the annealed section of any of the tests or a steady increase in the ES in the non annealed cases in the study

If a machine which claims a "perfect" anneal cannot provide a consistent ES/vertical POI in the hands of world class shooters then why should I bother
 
Dawg , You said the only study you've read claims no improvement if you anneal ????

This from your link of the study
Stage Two summary


Over sixty-one pairs of five shot groups, every single rifle averaged a significant improvement in velocity extreme spread when comparing AMP annealed cases with unannealed cases. The improvement for each shooter ranged from a maximum of 33.4% down to 6.15% annealed v unannealed.


There was a corresponding improvement in on-paper results from 100 yards right out to 1,000 yards. The improvement in vertical MOA for each shooter ranges from a maximum of 51.8% down to minus 10.07%, although that last number should be put into perspective. David White’s numbers, both annealed and not annealed were so tiny that 10% actually means 0.04 MOA.


As discussed above, there are many, many factors which can cause on-paper inaccuracy and velocity spread. These Strategic Edge results show that accurate annealing every reload with Annealing Made Perfect can eliminate the variables associated with three of these factors:

· Case neck tension – otherwise known as interference fit.

· Full length sized shoulder "bump”.

· Uniform gas sealing of the chamber by the case neck and shoulder.



Based on the averages of all the above data, annealing every reload can result in very significant improvements in both velocity Extreme Spread and on paper group size, in particular vertical dispersion at long range.
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Although not exact , I believe I've been saying the same thing . The AMP machine not only anneals each case the same every time , it anneals them to fully annealed or what I call dead soft . There test sure seemed to indicate annealing every time matters in more consistent velocities and smaller groups or at least that's how I read the article .

I'll need to go back and see if Cortina's annealing test used something close to sixty-one pairs of five shot groups with multiple shooters at multiple distances to verify his conclusions .
 
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First off I don't believe I ever posted that this was the only annealing paper I have ever read. I can post links to a dozen or more if you are interested in scientific papers such as this one.

https://vacaero.com/information-res...rmation-and-annealing-of-cartridge-brass.html

On AMPS study first off it was not conducted blind or double blind. Since all the brass in the beginning was brand new on the all of the ES and Vertical spread should have started off equal and in theory the annealed grew while the annealed should have stayed the same. You can see the placebo effect was hard at work here, in almost every test the first unannealed started off higher than the annealed

get past AMPS little blurbs at the bottom of each chart and look at the actual charts themselves. Notice AMP does not say how much the unannealed improved or deteriorated. In some of them the unannealed showed more improvement than the annealed. Look at the linear on the graphs. Ken faulks for example

you guys think annealing is magic pixie dust that is fine. Personally I know which properties of the brass it affects and which ones it does not and other that softening the brass after doing major case wildcatting I just don't see any use for it in my shop
 
You said:
First off I don't believe I ever posted that this was the only annealing paper I have ever read
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Really ! ????????????????????????????????

YOU 2 posts ago said:
the only study I have seen is this one by AMP
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You said:
you guys think annealing is magic pixie dust that is fine.
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???????

Did you even read my post or are you just waiting to respond

Me said:
Does annealing effect accuracy ? Well aren't there multiple caveats to answer that . First and foremost I'd think is Do we believe consistent bullet hold/release help accuracy . Although I generally don't want my necks dead soft but would think if every case neck is fully annealed to full stress relieved ( dead soft ) that would help accuracy . Not in it self but as it relates and contributes to all parts of internal ballistics .
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You clearly are reading , If you are even reading others posts . With a conclusion made up in your mind before you even start . Even the very study you linked claiming it supports your argument in fact destroyed it .

They started the test with new brass is a bad thing some how ???? Yeah cus If they said " we picked up some range brass but don't worry it was all the same head stamp" would have been so much better :rolleyes: Of course you need to start with new brass from the same lot . I'd think you'd need to have a base line . ;)


I don't know what's going on with you right now but I'm done with this discussion .
 
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Stress relieving sure does improve my performance, I don't look at the target, just the brass. When I see uniform color after upon extraction I know that the neck has expanded uniform, ergo release of the bullet is ok, when there is no soot on the case I know that the case has expanded and sealed the chamber, therefore energy has been sent the correct way, and I have previously noted the measurement of the fired and resized brass. there's no argument about this. As to the degree I achieve on the scale of annealing, I really don't need to know as I only stress relieve.
 
Very interesting read on the yeas and nays of annealling.

Personally, I anneal when I feel the neck start to pull less as it crosses back over the expander button/mandrell. This may be in 4-5 reloads which also means it's likely time to trim anyway (depending on cartridge) but the whole lot gets the treatment as I randomly measure a few cases and if they are an "average" of .007 over trim to length. The "treatment" is sized, annealed, *quenched, trimmed and duburred/chamfered.

After annealing it feels like the bullet seats "harder" which means the neck tension is higher. My theory, may not be fact to some.

RJ

*quenching stops the heat immediately as I use my fingers as a "thermostat"
 
well I was wrong, see my eating crow thread. I can only suppose that two years ago when I was testing annealing, neck lubing and checking for runout any improvements was getting lost in the noise of my technique. Two years of serious practice and I can see a definite improvement with the cases I put a little extra care into. Apologies to all
 
recoil junky, maybe the harder bullet setting is causes by the brass not springing back to the near the fired sizing. Work hardened brass will tend to refuse sizing.
I measure the fired brass for length, using the Hornaday Com., and the outside dia. of the neck. I then clean with pin tumbler and anneal. I measure each case before sizing and after for both length and run out. By doing this I know what my brass is doing and what my dies are doing.
 
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