Is some annealing better than none?

P

Prof Young

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Loaders:

Is some annealing better than none? Have been working on a couple hundred 223 brass getting them trimmed. I know I don't have to anneal and will have to toss brass as they split. And I know that getting it too hot (glowing red) is too much. I also know that you don't want the base of the case to get heated.

I watched a video of an annealing machine at work and the brass was only under the flame for about five seconds, which leads me to the question above. If I roll my brass necks through a flame (propane torch) for five to ten seconds then quench them in water, is that worth doing. (Yeah, I know it's all relative.)

Your thoughts and comment are coveted.

Life is good.
Prof Young
 
Quenching is totally wasted effort. These are cuprous, not ferrous.

I watched Erik Cortina (You Tube) try to ruin some brass. Propane torch annealing for up to 30 seconds, certain that he would ruin the neck tension in the over-annealed cases. He didn’t.

Anyway, cases are either annealed, or they’re over annealed. If they aren’t annealed enough, they’re not annealed. If attempting to just run them through flame, at least borrow some Tempilaq to get the timing down. Otherwise, you’re just wasting propane.
 
Remember when brass was impossible to find, about 4 to 12 years ago? That was a reason to "stress relieve" brass in order to save them, all other possible betterments aside. Heating with a hand held torch and spinning with a drill socket, timing with a watch and being in a dark room could not produce any amount of a consistant process.
I have a water cooled Annie that produces a constant amount of heat and temperature every time and that is extending the life of the brass, not considering any other benefits.
 
first question is how often are you splitting necks? I have never experienced a neck spilt in tens of thousands of rounds fire. Most get into the teens, some into the twenties. Primer pockets generally give out first.

I have a Annealeeze I rarely if ever use it anymore. I saw no benefit as far as accuracy, but it works and is a inexpensive alternative. Every now and again I get a wild hair and fire it up.
 
Yes

See post #10 here & I posted a few post earlier in the thread FWIW
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=564295

In the graph UN post you can see where the stress relief happens and how soft the brass gets the hotter it gets . NOTE : This only refers to cartridge brass and not brass as a whole . In fact "brass" is fully annealed when placed in a heat source of 600* for one hour . That however is talking about a block of brass that would need that amount of time to heat it through to the middle . Cartridge brass with it's very thin walls in comparison heats up much faster so the general brass annealing does not apply especially when you don't want the whole piece of brass annealed . You must be talking cartridge brass annealing which is actually different then general brass annealing because you don't want the base annealed .

Also the graph does show regardless of what others think . That you can partially anneal cartridge brass and in fact that is what I do . Reason being is that I use some of my brass in auto loaders so I don't want to fully soften my case necks reducing neck tension/bullet hold . most of the time I'm only looking to relieve stress rather then fully anneal the case necks This allows me to stress relieve while still keeping a good amount of bullet hold helping reduce bullet set back when the action violently chambers the round .
 
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Metal god, I only do stress relief on my brass. I'm not about to make the bold statement that I ANNEAL as that is an impossible point that constantly moves. Using Tempilaq 700 on the neck and shoulder and 450 in the mid section the heat can be controlled as wanted and it's the same time after time.
If a cartridge is loaded to its capability you're to split necks and stress relieving has greatly slowed that down for me.
 
That is my general take as well.

Having worked with the Templiq , you can't count on it for inductive. Whatever is in there interferes.

I do use it as a ball park indicator.

So I take the cases as close to the limit as I can (watching color change and for the remotest bit of red color in the dark).

The only cases I loose now are due to primer pockets getting loose. Some of my loads are on the edge or or a bit over normal max so may be due to that.

Unclenick has confirmed that a partial anneal done more often works as good or close to as good as a full anneal (max temp without going over)

The quality control end is that if the color change polishes off you are still under the limit.

I would rather be a bit conservative there and not loose a batch of cases.

With the Annie there are some timing variables due to carbon in the case and possibly machine consistency that makes that a better choice.

I can control that process with a bias to below and am happy with it.

A bonus is the bullets seat nicely rather than get hard to insert.

I don't claim I am more accurate, but I do like not having to force a bullet into a reluctant case that is no longer springy!

Some are can do anneal with a torch, I can't, but you sure have to be full spot on with a torch and not nearly as much with inductive.

Metal God has done some impressive work in that regard and my hat is off to him.

Annealing really is just stress relief, you are not tempering a case. Its how much stress relief. My guess is I am at about 70-80% of max, do it every 5 cycles and it never goes over the edge of gone.
 
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Quenching is totally wasted effort. These are cuprous, not ferrous.
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While quenching brass cartridge cases does not harden them as will high Carbon Steel, the traditional process of annealing cases used quenching in some procedures to assure that the heat did not migrate from the neck down to the head...the case head needs to remain hard.
 
Quenching has a purpose in some treatment of metal.

It does not in annealing or the supposed stop there of in a case.

Once the heat is removed the heat progress stops.

For those that want to over heat the end of the case just setting them in water and torching away is safer. You don't want to change the base as they can and will blow up when fired.

So, the logic is, if its sitting in water its impossible to heat up the base.

If its not, by the time you put it into water its too late.
 
I watched a video of an annealing machine at work and the brass was only under the flame for about five seconds, which leads me to the question above. If I roll my brass necks through a flame (propane torch) for five to ten seconds then quench them in water, is that worth doing. (Yeah, I know it's all relative.)
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Direct answer to your question is no, it does no good. Its far too slow by order of magnitudes time wise.

I won't say its impossible but at 5 seconds you also do not heat up enough to over heat the base.

Rifle brass is an odd world in that its so thin that it peaks fast but cools fast.

As noted, the temp pain on stuff (Templiq) does not work for inductive annealing. It has stuff in it (for lack of a better term) that works fine for a dense metal object but not a thin one.

I use temp crayons. They have their own issues but I can hold in one hand, hold the case in the other and get on the case in fractions of a second to test.

I don't go by that totally, I just use it as a ball park indicator. I also cross check with color changes to the outside case as well as dark room and look for even the slightest hint of orange color change (inside the case)

Follow up is to see if the color change polishes off. If it does you have not gone overboard.

I have used the pain on as a gross check to see if heat is traveling down below the shoulder. But my induction is up top so its a better indicator for heat transfer.

The smaller the case the iffier it gets of course.

I like bigger cases! My hands like bigger cases as well. 6.5 will be the smallest I anneal.

Its a fascinating area. My take is most people using torches are fooling themselves. Some like Metal God have the process down but it sure is major work to get it so.

I think the Annie sort of splits the difference between torches and the more costly AMP machine. I would like to work with an AMP just to see. Certainly quicker than my method and it may well be more accurate in getting close to right vs undershoot I do.
 
I’ve ran test by placing the torch on the shoulder and neck area and was unable to overheat the head of the case . I guess I should add a caveat to that and that is by keeping the flame On the neck and shoulder for any reasonable amount of time . I don’t have my notes on me right now but believe I had the neck and shoulders in the single propane torch flame for over 15 seconds and was unable to melt the 450° temperature indicator I had applied at the head of the case . While doing so the necks were glowing bright red indicating to me that they were well over 1400° .

My point is generally speaking when only placing the neck and shoulder in the flame it’s almost impossible to overheat the head of the case if you are only trying to relieve stress in the neck and shoulder area .
 
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On a side note, the AMP is now $1400 roughly and they keep hedging the terms on annealing (and going with hardness not the grain structure)

for their system they now input trim length. As I over trim that would be a custom change or a new adjustment.

Clearly the variables to a spot on anneal are extremely difficult.

I would opt for a safe anneal not a perfect one and just anneal a bit more often. With their system its awfully easy.
 
Stress Relieving is easier to say. I've spent hours reading the discussions on annealing and came to the conclusion that it is impossible to achieve. I judge my results by the reloading process after the Annie has done it's thing. I measure the lengths of fired cases, they are within .0005 inch, the resized cases are within .005 inch or closer. The runout will be within .001 inch or better or I resize. Bullet setting pressure is uniform. If there is one thing I have learned from this forum it is to measure, measure, and measure again.
Of note, before annealing I clean the brass with a pin tumbler removing the inside carbon, and I have enough brass in each caliber that I anneal every time.
As said in earlier posts, I use a lot of range pickup and have attempted to form a process that allows for some degree of uniform SD. And I did that.
 
RC20 said:
Quenching has a purpose in some treatment of metal.

It does not in annealing or the supposed stop there of in a case.

Once the heat is removed the heat progress stops.

For those that want to over heat the end of the case just setting them in water and torching away is safer. You don't want to change the base as they can and will blow up when fired.

So, the logic is, if its sitting in water its impossible to heat up the base.

If its not, by the time you put it into water its too late.
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There was a method of annealing cases wherein a person would hold the case between thumb and finger and drop the case into water when it got too hot to hold thus assuring the heat did not get so high in the head that it would anneal. That is what I was referring to.
 
I like my cases to have a good tight grip on the bullet, that is why I really do not see much point in annealing. I have found I get my best ED's and SD's with .003 to .004 neck tension. Now if I were doing some serious wildcatting I would be annealing after forming my brass.

But in the interest in removing some of the mystique from the process, that little rainbow effect you see is the result of oxidation. A thin film of heat induced oxidation occurs when the brass reaches 400 - 600 F. That refracts light much like a film of oil on water and therefor the rainbow. So all you need to do is heat your the neck/shoulder so the oxidation film reaches as far down as a piece of new Lapua or LC and no farther and you will have a nicely annealed piece of brass. If the oxidation goes halfway down the case then trash it
 
But in the interest in removing some of the mystique from the process, that little rainbow effect you see is the result of oxidation. A thin film of heat induced oxidation occurs when the brass reaches 400 - 600 F. That refracts light much like a film of oil on water and therefor the rainbow. So all you need to do is heat your the neck/shoulder so the oxidation film reaches as far down as a piece of new Lapua or LC and no farther and you will have a nicely annealed piece of brass.
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Hmm interesting . Dare I say "I've done test that show" :rolleyes::D That I've reached the 750* mark inside the neck and 450* below the shoulder with out the case showing any signs of annealing or the marks you speak of . Unfortunately imageshack lost the pic showing the cases I tested but what I did was test heat intensity of the flame and at different angles on the cases and I found . Low heat will result in no anneal marks and medium heat with the flame angled upwards ( shoulder to neck ) at a 45* angle also produced no anneal marks while reaching the correct temp .

This is the only photo I have of the test and this is the torch turned way down heating the neck and shoulder pretty slow . You can actually see the 450* tempilaq melting below the shoulder . Note: no anneal marks are seen on the case .
37cr.jpg


I should add that the above only shows you don't necessarily need to see the anneal marks to prove proper annealing . It DOES NOT show if you see the marks you did reach the proper temp . That's where I thought your quote was interesting . Although my tests have shown you don't need the anneal marks I actually have no idea if you do see them it means for sure the case was annealed properly .

This makes for an interesting next step . Reason being is I think I can get anneal marks using MAPP gas before the inside of the neck reaches 750* . Now that's just a theory and I may very well be wrong but it does make me want to know ;)

The reason I think this is because when I tested annealing with MAAP gas it produced large anneal marks no matter what I did . I believe it had to do with the heat of the flame ( MAPP gas burns much hotter then propane ) as well as the size of the flame I used . you can see the anneal mark on the case while it's still in the flame .

p1jn.jpg
 
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Your thoughts and comment are coveted.
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I'm going to be a lone voice in the wilderness here, but I've been reloading for almost 50 years, and have never annealed any of my brass, ever.

Never lost any rifle brass to neck splits that I can recall. Lost some to cracks and partial head separation (and a couple of complete head separations) but never any cracked necks or case mouths.

Revolver brass, yes, cracked mouths, here and there, maybe a couple dozen (mostly .38 Spl) over the years.

I'm also the sloppy guy who never bothered to keep records of how many times a case got reloaded. Oh, and I full length size everything, every time.

Maybe I just don't load and shoot them as much as other folks, but I'd say, if you aren't losing brass due to neck cracking, why bother annealing them?
 
44 AMP said:
I'm going to be a lone voice in the wilderness here, but I've been reloading for almost 50 years, and have never annealed any of my brass, ever.

Never lost any rifle brass to neck splits that I can recall. Lost some to cracks and partial head separation (and a couple of complete head separations) but never any cracked necks or case mouths.

Revolver brass, yes, cracked mouths, here and there, maybe a couple dozen (mostly .38 Spl) over the years.

I'm also the sloppy guy who never bothered to keep records of how many times a case got reloaded. Oh, and I full length size everything, every time.

Maybe I just don't load and shoot them as much as other folks, but I'd say, if you aren't losing brass due to neck cracking, why bother annealing them?
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Over the years I have handloaded, I experienced few neck splints on rifle brass and did not engage in annealing rifle brass (loose primer pockets are generally the first sign of age on bottle neck cases). However, my early efforts relative to handloading was with .44 Magnum and cast lead bullets of the then-popular "Keith type".

While we though that Keith was a brilliant bullet designer, it turns out that our adoration was somewhat misplaced. Over a period of time it became apparent to me that the crimping groove on his bullets (I was using a Lyman 429421) were way too deep . Logically, the crimp on a cartridge need only be the depth to which factory loads are crimped. My point being that I was induced by the excessive depth of the Keith bullet to actually crimp my bullets excessively to accommodate his bullets. The result was cracks appearing in the case mouth after a few reloading's. I found that annealing the .44 case mouths on that batch of cases, the remaining cases had a very much longer cycle life.

Finally determining that his crimping groove was excessive, and that coupled with a little too much flare before seating the bullet, in other words, I stopped excessively work-hardening the brass and neck splits were very much lessened.

I shoot mostly .38 Special now and have five separate batches that I routinely reload. When a case neck (or a body) splits, the offender (only) goes into the recycle bin and and is replace by another once-fired case. I inspect the case mouths on all the cases before reloading, discarding those with even the smallest detectable crack. Using that method, I do not know how many times any particular piece of brass has been fired from that batch so I would not bother to try and anneal them as I did with the .44 Magnum cases.
 
@ Metal God did you ever see a piece of Lapua or lake City brass straight from the box that did not have thermal oxidation marks ?

If you do not have any annealing marks on your brass after annealing it is because you either did not get the brass hot enough to oxidize or there was no oxygen present in the room. It is a simple chemical process

From Lapua

The annealing marks do not harm the Lapua case in any manner, and are merely a visual indication that the material has been heat-treated at the factory.
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https://www.lapua.com/what-is-the-d... annealing marks do not,when you open the box.

this is referencing steel so the temps are slightly different but it's the same principle

Heat the steel to temperatures from 400 to 800 degrees Fahrenheit, to produce oxidation colors. At 480 degrees F., the steel turns brown, at 520 degrees, it turns purple, at 575 degrees, it turns blue and at 800 degrees, it turns grey. These temperatures are commonly used in tempering tool steel
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https://sciencing.com/give-steel-different-colors-10012425.html
 
44_AMP said:
... have never annealed any of my brass, ever.
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When bottleneck begins to "squeak!" upon withdrawing
the neck expander -- time to anneal.

Worst offender ?
300 WinMag


450 Tempilaq below shoulder on bottleneck
750 Tempilaq inside neck on (long) straightwall

So easy.... a Caveman
 
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