Is muzzle energy a pointless descriptor for handgun rounds?

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Isk

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I usually carry Speer Gold Dot 124 gr. 9mm +p rounds in my Glock 19, partly because it generates 400+ ft. lbs. of energy at the muzzle. However, once I began doing some research, I discovered that these rounds appear to be no more effective than their counterpart, the Speer Gold Dot 147 gr. standard 9mm rounds.

It appears that both rounds penetrate similar amounts in 10% ballistic gelatin and both rounds can "get the job done". So, why use the 124 gr +p rounds? The 147 gr. rounds should have less felt recoil, less noise (being subsonic) and still get similar if not better penetration (with reliable expansion)...even though they only have a ME of about 317 ft. lbs.

Though energy numbers are included in every ammunition stat block, is ME a useful descriptor of the effectiveness of a round?
 
I think ME is over rated. Give me a big fat and slow slug over a small light one any day.

I am not saying ME does not serve a purpose but I think momentum is a little better for self defense. I also think that numbers like Energy, Momentum and TKO ratings are just numbers and that just because a round scores well or does not score well on one of those numbers does not make or break the round.
 
There really is no great indicator of a round effectiveness, based solely on it's ballistics, at least for most of the common self defense calibers, 9mm, 40, 45ACP etc...

Energy is just the potential to do work. Other factors play into the effectiveness and what the goal of that work is. If you want strictly penetration, then usually, a heavier bullet with higher momentum will penetrate deeper. Faster moving, lighter bullets tend to cause a more violent stretch or temporary wound cavity, which may or may not aid in incapacitation.

All in all, most modern loads in the most common defensive calibers are all designed to perform to a similar standard. Some will do better in penetrating glass and others will expand more reliably than others etc... Pick a good one that shoots well for you and carry it.
 
In all honesty the bullet/caliber/gun used is such a small part of the equation.

Find a load (HP of course) that shoots POA and works every-time in your gun and move on.

It is generally your tactics, skill and determination that will determine who is going to win a fight. There is no magic bullet.
 
While there is no "magic" bullet , bullet design is very important .Premium bullets always do a better job .They make them for defense and for big game hunting ! They do a fine job when you do your part !
 
With the energy and effect that is being discussed here, it's doubtful the target will notice a difference.
They're all kind of minimal compared to say a .308.
And a .308 is kind of minimal compared to a cannon.
And on and on.
More time on the range will make a bigger difference than worrying over the finer points in ammo choices.
 
It is generally your tactics, skill and determination that will determine who is going to win a fight. There is no magic bullet.
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Very good point. Other factors such as barrel length, rate of twist, bullet composition and shape make a difference as well. Numbers on the ammo box only tell us so much.
 
Energy does matter:
38 special vs 357 mag, same bullet pushed faster.
40 S&W vs full power 10mm, same bullets pushed faster.
 
Thanks for the responses everybody.

CDW4ME, I get what you're saying, I'm just not sure that a faster bullet increases the lethality of the round by any measurable effect on the target.
 
It's one piece of the puzzle, and one of the easier pieces to sort out.

Momentum is the measure of how hard it is to stop a moving object, kinetic energy is the measure of how much potential that object has to do work.

When it comes to bullets, one can get a rough idea of relative temporary cavity size by comparing energy and a rough idea of relative penetration by comparing momentum. The comparisons have to be done in a way that minimizes other factors in order to get a reasonably accurate result.

Terminal performance is an extremely complicated subject. There is no single number, or even a series of numbers that will fully characterize the terminal performance of a bullet on a living target and there never will be. However, understanding physical quantities such as mass, velocity, momentum and energy can help us gain a better feel for how different rounds might perform.
 
Isk

Is muzzle energy a pointless descriptor for handgun rounds?
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Isk
Thanks for the responses everybody.

CDW4ME, I get what you're saying, I'm just not sure that a faster bullet increases the lethality of the round by any measurable effect on the target.
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If you are relating muzzle energy to defensive pistol use, where your objective is to choose a cartridge to quickly incapacitate an human threat with a well placed shot or shots to center of mass; then muzzle energy is not a great indication of incapacitation ability.

Considering the primary means (only one of the four ways) by which a bullet can incapacitate - blood loss:
Obviously the bullet fired by the cartridge must have sufficient energy to do the work necessary to crush sufficient vascular tissue in a wide range of situations to cause loss of blood pressure and resultant incapacitation. You pick your cartridge and that is your pool of energy that you have if the situation arises where you need to deploy your weapon.

Then you must also consider the bullet design. Deformation in a certain range is desirable, too little or too much can be detrimental to optimizing the volume of vascular tissue crushed and the speed of blood pressure loss. The volume of crushed tissue is a result of both the diameter of the bullet and the depth of the wound channel.

Consider that a bullet which expands but upsets and proceeds to travel while presenting its narrow side dimension is not as desirable as a bullet which does not upset and presents its full expanded diameter, and penetrates to the same depth; thereby the second example crushes a larger volume of tissue and blood loss is faster/greater resulting is faster incapacitation.

Remember, for defensive handgun purposes it is your goal to incapacitate as quickly as possible to preserve your life (or prevent great bodily harm) or that of another, not to kill.

Lethality should not be part of the calculus, nor should it be a stated objective. Yes, a shooting may result in the death of the threat, but that is not the objective.
 
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Penetraton, placement, expansion. That is what is important. Nothing else.

Muzzle energy is one way to predict #1 and #3. Not pointless, but one way to predict effectiveness. Bullet construction is the other important piece of informaton for predicting performance, but there is no mathematical way to measure it. A bullets sectional density comes close, but is not perfect by any means.
 
Penetraton, placement, expansion. That is what is important. Nothing else.
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Placement and penetration are critical, but have to be combined with trajectory through the body. You can have well placed rounds that penetrate, but if they don't hit what needs to be hit, passing between vital structures or deflected away from them, then physiological response isn't likely to be what is desired.

The classic example is the one that killed rookie Linda Lawrence of Baton Rouge PD, the first female killed in LA line of duty. During the fight with the attacker, her partner shot him several times, one shot being a contact or near contact shot to the top of the skull that exited the back of the head. Placement was outstanding. Penetration was outstanding. Muzzle gasses alone should have produced huge damage, but they didn't. The round actually bisected hemispheres of the brain and while temporarily slowed the attacker, he recovered and pressed on his attack. The trajectory was poor.

http://books.google.com/books?id=kr...ouisiana female officer rookie killed&f=false
 
One point overlooked in this discussion is what you're shooting at. In thin skinned, light boned humans, muzzle energy is less important because penetration is relatively easy. In fact, over penetration can become an issue. Compare that to a large, thick skinned, heavy boned animal like a bear and then muzzle energy is much more important because it takes much more force to penetrate to vital areas.
 
Isk said:
I usually carry Speer Gold Dot 124 gr. 9mm +p rounds in my Glock 19, partly because it generates 400+ ft. lbs. of energy at the muzzle. However, once I began doing some research, I discovered that these rounds appear to be no more effective than their counterpart, the Speer Gold Dot 147 gr. standard 9mm rounds.

It appears that both rounds penetrate similar amounts in 10% ballistic gelatin and both rounds can "get the job done". So, why use the 124 gr +p rounds? The 147 gr. rounds should have less felt recoil, less noise (being subsonic) and still get similar if not better penetration (with reliable expansion)...even though they only have a ME of about 317 ft. lbs.

Though energy numbers are included in every ammunition stat block, is ME a useful descriptor of the effectiveness of a round?
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Many people buy handgun ammunition based solely on the highest velocity and greatest muzzle energy figures for self-defense because they mistakenly believe that it's an indication of stopping power. Bullet design and construction in conjunction within its designed operating velocity window dictates overall terminal bullet performance.

I personally like the 147gr bullet weight for 9mm for the reasons you stated; less recoil, less muzzle blast (faster follow-up shots), equal reliable bullet expansion and penetration. If the 147gr bullet weight shoots to acceptable accuracy levels and reliability, it seems like a sound choice to me. Don't forget to include 147gr Golden Saber, Ranger-T and HST





Check out Winchester's Ammo Testing that compares ballistic properties and terminal effectiveness of Winchester Law Enforcement Ammunition in gelatin, and click "Launch Testing Comparison Tool":


http://www.winchester.com/PRODUCTS/LE/Pages/ammunition-testing.aspx
 
IMO, Muzzle energy is very inportant... hydrostatic shock ( that huge wound cavity ) is what drops animals more quickly if there is no CNS damage... unfortunately none of the handguns ( with possible exception of the super magnum revolver rounds ) offers enough velocity to get "real" hydrostatic shock, like a high powered rifle is capable of...

in shooting farm yard pests, I found over the course of many years, that out of my 4" 357 magnum, that the lighter bullets at faster speed, did offer less crawl offs to the animals hole, than I got from the standard from slower / heavier 158 grain bullets...

I would expect that provided the distance wasn't excessive ( normal self defense shooting distances ) that the lighter / faster bullets would generally offer better "stopping power"... that said... I'm still a heavy bullet guy, just because ;)
 
Penetraton, placement, expansion. That is what is important. Nothing else.
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I have to disagree.

Yes, those are certainly important.
But the energy of the round is also a factor.

Consider a golf ball in flight...
If it hits a person it could kill them (with proper placement), even though there is zero expansion and zero penetration.
The golf ball's energy is dumped in to the target, and that is what causes the damage.
It's the same with a boxer's punch...it can be lethal even though there is no expansion or penetration at all.

One target is 10 feet away, the other target is 150 yards away.
Shoot them both with a 200g .45 Auto round.
Do they both suffer the same amount of damage?
 
Penetraton, placement, expansion. That is what is important. Nothing else. I have to disagree.

Yes, those are certainly important.
But the energy of the round is also a factor.
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Please read the whole post and stop editing out parts to make the post read differently than what was said.

I also said

energy is one way to predict #1 and #3.
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Kinetic Energy is a poor indicator of pistol perfomance. Momentum more closely relates to the perminate channel size that a bulllet creates. While temporary wound channel is more relaated to energy. Energy does come into play at the upper end of service calibers. However energys effect is always somewhat of a joker in the equasion.
 
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