is it important to train for/around a manual safety/decocker?

[TeamSinglestack]

1. Should I continue to insist on consistent muscle memory and train exclusively with the M9 manual of arms --

You can use what you want, as long as you condition yourself to use it properly with frequent and effective training. With enough repetition, you can easily condition yourself to operate ANY handgun, regardless of safety feature / location. Combine repetition with a frequent training schedule, and you will maintain the conditioning effect, and improve performance over time.

People have operational issues with firearms because they fail to train with the intensity or frequency required to develop and / or maintain a conditioned training effect.

 

[Sleuth]

Moose,
Thank you for your service to our country.
My agency used to issue the S&W 6906, which can still be found. The decocker works the same as your M9. During the 9 years I was the lead firearms instructor at our academy, we trained everyone to carry the pistol with the "safety' off, but to sweep the 'safety' up on every draw. Just in case something has pressed the 'safety' down.

So, I agree you can try some other guns, but always go back to the M9 and sweeping the safety up - something that can be practiced "dry" - with no ammo. Of course you need to practice from whatever holster you will use 'in country'.

6906 - compact alloy frame, 12 rnd magazine 9mm.

 

[BlueTrain]

The question of what you will do under stress is a difficult one to answer, to say the least. Probably different people will react differently at different times. More than likely it may depend on the particular mindset you are in at the moment, although that is a little hard to describe. Let us say, as an example, that you will not react quite the same if you just woke up as when you are fully awake and more aware of your surroundings. But even that can be over simplistic. Imagine for a moment that the telephone rings when you are asleep. Most people will have had to respond to that kind of thing enough to literally do it in their sleep. But that may not be a good example.

Strange things can happen under stress. I know most of you have heard of and probably experienced some of these. Time seems to slow down, a kind of tunnel effect kicks in because you are intensely focused on something and you can somehow make your mind think about very little things that you absolutely must do at that moment or else! On the other hand, if are not entirely sure of what is going on (like if something were happening out of your line of vision but you heard something), you could just as easily become confused and disoriented. I can imagine that happening if there were an explosion or very loud noise nearby.

Then, too, it is just as possible that you will do nothing whatsoever. Usually one's self-preservation instincts kick in enough to make you do something, even if it isn't the best thing. If you are just a bystander, you may not have the necessary impulse to react but just spectate.

Notice I make no reference specifically to having a particular problem with different handguns, which isn't to say it is not possible or even unlikely. The biggest issue in my own experience with regards to simply reacting is--the first time it happens. After that, if you survive, you will have learned about ten years worth of sitting in a classroom and you might even age that much, too. From then on you tend to take things a little slower.

 

[anonimoose]

Shooters,

I really appreciate everyone's thoughts. In all seriousness, the maturity, professionalism, objectivity and insight on this forum are second to none. The YouTube comment section this ain't.

Was thinking about this at work today (we had a long drive back from 29 Palms), and I've gotten to the heart of my dilemma. Most of us would agree with the KISS principle -- Keep It Simple, Stupid. The problem is, there are two conflicting KISS principles at work here:

Option #1 maintains the KISS principle because my civilian carry firearm is similar to my duty firearm, warts and all. Who cares if the slide-mounted safety/decocker is considered "archaic" when it comes to modern defensive weapons? I'll train on it until the trigger/safety is as natural as anything else I've done a thousand times, so (God forbid) whether I draw my SW 6906 in Yuma or my M9 in Dwyer, the manual of arms will be identical. KISS.

But Option #2 also maintains the KISS principle because my civilian carry firearm (be it a Glock 26, Kahr CW9, Kel-Tec PF-9, SW M&Pc or a Walther PPS) will be as simple as draw, point and shoot. No fumbling for the safety, no worries if I don't get my ideal high firm pistol grip with two hands. KISS.

Gents, if I was an infantry type at work or one of those true firearm sportsmen at home (the kind that run three-gun competitions and IDPA and all that jazz), I can see going with Option #2 and just training myself on two parallel platforms. But let's be honest, I'm a comm guy at work and just your average armed/concerned citizen at home. While both options adhere to the KISS principle, I think the ideal represented in Option #1 will require less time, money, and energy to attain. Since everything in firearms is a matter of compromise (especially in a concealed carry pistol), I have to accept that there are no perfect answers.

Leaning towards Options #1, but still deciding. Thank you all for adding to the debate going on in my head!

Very Respectfully,
Moose, USMC


MLeake

With regards to the OP, sticking to one basic layout (slide mounted, up to fire, DA first round) may not be necessary, but definitely isn't a bad idea. Like you said, it's all about developing muscle memory.

Sir, there's the rub -- I would agree that it's not necessary, but it's certainly a bonus.

Seaman, BlueTrain, Bartholomew Roberts, C0untZer0, Skans, TeamSinglestack, Sleuth -- thank you gentlemen for your kind words and your insightful opinions.

TailGator

It seems to me that it would take just a bit more presence of mind to switch between up and down than between up and none.

I totally agree, sir -- which is why I'm ruling out HKs, 1911-style firearms (like the Sig P238) and the Ruger LC9/SR9c. It's either going to be a M9-style safety, or none at all.

If you can maintain the discipline to run your thumb upward when picking up pistols that don't have a thumb safety, that would seem ideal to me.

Agreed, sir -- I think you can certainly train for this, but I'm afraid that after repeatedly sweeping up with my left thumb and finding no safety to actually sweep up against, my fingers/brain will eventually learn to just discount this motion (it'll turn into some half-hearted vestigial movement).

glockcompact

Thank you for your service, sir.

Think of it like this. If you have two vehicles and ones an automatic little car that you drive everyday and the other one is a 5 speed sportscar that you drive on Saturdays. You don't have to completely relearn that sportcar when you get in it. (ie when the clutch grabs). When you sit in that seat and start that sportscar your muscles will remember. I feel this way with firearms too. When you place that "other" pistol in your hands you muscles will remember.

Sir, I agree...but I think this level of familiarity requires a level of practice/investment that may not be realistic for us non 03xx types. Yes, I will practice, but I'm talking about using the firearm in a totally unexpected situation, like when one of our "allies" suddenly decides to start shooting people up, and I go from white/yellow to red/black in a matter of seconds and my heart is suddenly pounding in my throat and I'm fumbling to engage that little Serpa tab to draw my weapon. We comm guys don't get as much practice/situational drills with this as the 03xx Marines, and I'm worried that at that moment, my hands/brain will think I have the Glock 26 from home and not the M9...and I'll forget to disengage the safety. If I'm only going to practice maybe 100 hours a year (2 hours a week of live/dry-fire drills), most of it outside work at my local gun range, why not devote my limited time, money and energy to a single system, however imperfect it is? It's different for you MCSF types -- you run around with weapons in your hands all the time. I'm worried about the CO's next VTC...!

Mudinyeri

1. How frequently do you carry the M9 and for what reason? Do you drill with it frequently enough that your draw sequence is truly muscle memory?

Sir, in garrison, only at the pistol range, but while deployed, ALL the time. Probably not going overseas until 2012. And while I do drill with the M9 and the SW 6906 frequently (live/dry-fire), if I was honest with myself it's probably not more than two hours a week at most.

2. Do you really believe that strapping a bunch of lights, lazers and other doo-hickies to your weapon will make it a more effective SD weapon? (Sorry, pet peeve of mine.)

Haha, not at all, sir. Was initially intrigued with the use of a laser as a training tool to ensure that I don't jerk the trigger during dryfire drills (my marksmanship coach noticed that I anticipated my shots). Then, I began drinking the Crimson Trace (CT) Kool-Aid with regard to using the laser in low-light and fast target-acquisition scenarios. Even now, I wouldn't mount anything (lights and other doo-hickies) on the rail of a concealed carry firearm (only on a home-defense firearm), and I am only considering the CT lasers because they're grip activated (unlike rail mounted doo-hickies which you have to manipulate by moving the trigger finger).

Personally, I like SD weapons that are as simple as possible. Most people don't train enough with their personally-owned SD weapons that they truly are operating on muscle memory. That being the case, the fewer things to remember the better.

Sir, I agree -- what you said is Option #2, and that embodies KISS as well.

MLeake

Thank you for your service, sir.

The question is, can they do just fine when somebody is shooting at them? Haven't been shot at (at least, not by direct fire, and returning fire against mortars or rockets is beyond the scope of a handgun), so I can't say whether having to remember which way my thumb should go would be a factor.

I suspect that it might, though, and I can't see why I'd want to find out.

Exactly, sir.

 

[FrankenMauser]

Provide yourself with a high degree of familiarity with all of your weapons, and the operation of any of them becomes instinctive. Design and ergonomics don't matter.


However... I still avoid 'backwards' safeties (M9 and similar). I could easily get used to it, but don't want to have to spend a lot of time working with the new weapon. Free time (to practice) is one of my most limited commodities. I'm better off spending that time practicing with the pistols I already own, than building familiarity with a new one.

 

[glockcompact]

anonimoose,
I think your reasoning is sound. If you want to stay with one platform for now, well, I see more pros then cons with that thinking. I'm a big believer of the KISS system also.
I spent two years in 29 stumps ha ha. Alpha Co 1/7. Wow the heat. I miss running up the sandy hills in full combat gear. NOT!

Semper Fi Marine,
Brit.