Is handloading being rendered obsolete?

[georgehwbush]

and then there are those that load for quality, while i can still load at or below the cheepest factory loads in my calibers, even the most expensive wont keep up with the performance i get from hand loads. last batch of fifty i shot across a chrono the extreem spread was 25 and the SD was 2. and that's out of a 3k ft/s round. so obsolete ? not a chance !

 

[Unclenick]

last batch of fifty i shot across a chrono the extreem spread was 25 and the SD was 2. and that's out of a 3k ft/s round. so obsolete ? not a chance !

That pair of numbers, 25 ES and 2 SD isn't mathematically possible. For a sample size of 50 with an SD of 2, the expected ES is 9.01, and for an ES of 25, the expected SD is 5.55. The expected value is the average result you would get for an infinite number of samples of the same size, each with the same SD in the first instance and the same ES in the second instance. For an infinitely large sample size, the ratio of SD to ES is about 6. You have a ratio of 6.5 for just 50 rounds. No possible combination of 50 numbers can produce that ratio.

So, something is off. I would immediately suspect the chronograph has an issue. If you have a record of the individual shot velocities, you can manually enter them in an Excel file to get the real results. Use the Average() function to get the mean and the STD.S() function to get the standard deviation. For ES, use the MAX() function minus the MIN() function. In each case, the range of 50 cells you entered the 50-shot velocities into is inside the parenthesis.

 

[zeke]

For funzies, just approximated the current cost to buy components for 450 308 target rounds using sierra 168 hpbt. Including using the brass bout 4 times, cheaper to just buy boxes of Fed 168 hpbt match, and then get the brass. And didn't include shipping or hazmat.

Ain't no wonder the 22 lr precision leagues are taking off.

 

[stagpanther]

Ain't no wonder the 22 lr precision leagues are taking off.

Might not be as straightforward as that. Putting together a competitive 22lr rifle will cost you at least as much--often more--than a good centerfire rig. Ammo? Premium 22lr matched by lot number and bought by at least the brick or case is going to set you back hundreds to thousands of dollars at a time. For me, 22lr is virtually impossible to shoot just a few at a time on a typical shooting session--I usually end up shooting 50 to 100, sometimes more. So the rate of consumption is much higher than your typical centerfire IMO. My experience is that for anything more serious than casual plinking the notion you'll save money shooting 22lr is largely an illusion.

 

[zeke]

Might not be as straightforward as that. Putting together a competitive 22lr rifle will cost you at least as much--often more--than a good centerfire rig. Ammo? Premium 22lr matched by lot number and bought by at least the brick or case is going to set you back hundreds to thousands of dollars at a time. For me, 22lr is virtually impossible to shoot just a few at a time on a typical shooting session--I usually end up shooting 50 to 100, sometimes more. So the rate of consumption is much higher than your typical centerfire IMO. My experience is that for anything more serious than casual plinking the notion you'll save money shooting 22lr is largely an illusion.

Will admit to not being that familiar with the 22 costs, and appreciate the experience of others. However don't most long range shooters handload, and that brings in a whole new line of expense to get set up? As compared to buying bricks of match 22? The rate of consumption makes sense, kinda like handloading may not save you money but allows you to shoot more.

At our range the only competitive event to take off has been the 22 precision shoots. Likely because we our longest range is only 600 yds.

As you indicated, have not participated in the 22 largely due due the expense of adding another rifle. That and am watching it turn into another equipment/position change race.

 

[stagpanther]

At our range the only competitive event to take off has been the 22 precision shoots. Likely because we our longest range is only 600 yds.

As you indicated, have not participated in the 22 largely due due the expense of adding another rifle. That and am watching it turn into another equipment/position change race.

The beauty of 22lr is that it's so easy to shoot that anyone can do it--and they can bring any gun they have, and that's often kids and first-timers starting out with 10-22 based rigs. But once you get addicted--and you WILL get addicted--you'll start sinking more money into quality gear and ammo. I tried loading my own 22lr ammo for a while, and I found it impossible to get to the levels of precision necessary that commercial manufacturers do--a fool's errand for me. So, in a sense that makes 22lr competitive shooting "more democratic" in that anyone can also have access to top-grade ammo.

600 yards in 22lr would be more or less the equivalent of a mile +/- or so in a good centerfire rig. : )

 

[zeke]

The beauty of 22lr is that it's so easy to shoot that anyone can do it--and they can bring any gun they have, and that's often kids and first-timers starting out with 10-22 based rigs. But once you get addicted--and you WILL get addicted--you'll start sinking more money into quality gear and ammo. I tried loading my own 22lr ammo for a while, and I found it impossible to get to the levels of precision necessary that commercial manufacturers do--a fool's errand for me. So, in a sense that makes 22lr competitive shooting "more democratic" in that anyone can also have access to top-grade ammo.

600 yards in 22lr would be more or less the equivalent of a mile +/- or so in a good centerfire rig. : )

They don't shoot the 22s at 600 yds, but believe they do go out to the 300 yd line. Mentioned the 600 yd max because the regular precision rifle shooters seem to prefer ranges going out to 1000 yds. One of our members spent considerable effort to set up a high power range, but there has been zero interest.

They tried an introductory shoot, but got limited response. Believe most the shooters attending are in various leagues, and like our range because they can shoot at longer distance.

May consider trying the 22's, but have limited energy/money for new interests.
Appreciate the info however.

 

[Unclenick]

For funzies, just approximated the current cost to buy components for 450 308 target rounds using sierra 168 hpbt. Including using the brass bout 4 times, cheaper to just buy boxes of Fed 168 hpbt match, and then get the brass. And didn't include shipping or hazmat.

I ran that buying Lapua brass, Ginex primers, Accurate 4064, and 168-grain SMKs, all from Powder Valley (one hazmat fee and all currently available) and came up with about $1.09/round, vs. $1.50/round for Federal GMM loaded ammo. If Federal primers were available, it would be $1.10/rd. With Starline brass, it drops to about $0.98/round. Mind you, I am buying enough for more than 1000 rounds at a time and would have 200 rounds worth of powder left over. I did not count shipping other than hazmat because both loaded rounds and components need that, and it varies with how far the package has to travel. The bottom line is that it is closing in on loaded ammo prices, the same as has been the case for shotgun reloading components for a long time, but it isn't quite there yet.

 

[rclark]

One of our members spent considerable effort to set up a high power range, but there has been zero interest.

Problem is, it takes a lot of dedication to the endeavor. Not many people (me included) have the 'drive' to do precision rifle shooting and all that it entails. Plus have an interest in competitions... I like my sixguns and shoot minute of tin can at 25 to 75 yards for fun. And rifles out to a couple of hundred yards to hit vitals of a game animal with an '06. Good enough for my shooting needs .

Just being able to reload is rewarding. Not really about the money, although that certainly allows me to shoot more with my nickels and not rely on factory availability. Shoot what I want and when I want. Win Win. Shot some .45 Colt today along with .22LR today. All I did was knock on some steel targets and went home. Enough practice in the hot weather. Debated on shooting one of my ROAs, but decided to hot to stay out that long. When I shoot BP, I like to spend some time making the most of it (get as dirty as possible) as I know I have a cleaning session at home waiting for me whether I shoot 1 shot or 80 .

 

[zeke]

I ran that buying Lapua brass, Ginex primers, Accurate 4064, and 168-grain SMKs, all from Powder Valley (one hazmat fee and all currently available) and came up with about $1.09/round, vs. $1.50/round for Federal GMM loaded ammo. If Federal primers were available, it would be $1.10/rd. With Starline brass, it drops to about $0.98/round. Mind you, I am buying enough for more than 1000 rounds at a time and would have 200 rounds worth of powder left over. I did not count shipping other than hazmat because both loaded rounds and components need that, and it varies with how far the package has to travel. The bottom line is that it is closing in on loaded ammo prices, the same as has been the case for shotgun reloading components for a long time, but it isn't quite there yet.

Well, ya convinced me to actually use a calculator to get more precise (which i should have done to begin with). Although used graph and sons, no shipping or hazmat.
450 rds Fed premium with 168 sierra hpbt = $900

2.8 lbs W748 =128.50
450 CCI 34 = 54.45 (which is what i use with 748 in 308)
450 sierra hpbt = 211.50
450 privi brass = 333
totals up to 727.75

So your right in this instance, if i use inexpensive brass. Although privi has proven itself in other caliber tried. When loading for my 308 bolts specifically with upgraded components, am using FedGM Match. However the original premise was general target loads to equal Fed match loads, and have never used lapua brass. I did not base it on buying at bulk, but per 100 bullets, 1000 primers, individual lbs of powder and 100 lots of brass. Did not figure in the life of brass for this. Also did not figure in the cost of getting and maintaining the resources to reload.

if i substitute Lapua brass, the total goes to 993.25

 

[jetinteriorguy]

Well, ya convinced me to actually use a calculator to get more precise (which i should have done to begin with). Although used graph and sons, no shipping or hazmat.
450 rds Fed premium with 168 sierra hpbt = $900

2.8 lbs W748 =128.50
450 CCI 34 = 54.45 (which is what i use with 748 in 308)
450 sierra hpbt = 211.50
450 privi brass = 333
totals up to 727.75

So your right in this instance, if i use inexpensive brass. Although privi has proven itself in other caliber tried. When loading for my 308 bolts specifically with upgraded components, am using FedGM Match. However the original premise was general target loads to equal Fed match loads, and have never used lapua brass. I did not base it on buying at bulk, but per 100 bullets, 1000 primers, individual lbs of powder and 100 lots of brass. Did not figure in the life of brass for this. Also did not figure in the cost of getting and maintaining the resources to reload.

if i substitute Lapua brass, the total goes to 993.25

But if you factor in reusing the brass for even a minimum of four cycles it chops about $250.00 off that cost which brings the total down to around $475.00 which is almost half the cost of factory ammo. You have to figure in the savings of reusing the brass since it’s the major cost of reloading. And only four cycles is being pretty conservative.

 

[Unclenick]

Also, Grafs is charging more than Powder Valley at the moment, though this can change, of course. PV prices would put 450 Starline cases at $243, or $0.13/use, and arguably, give you better cases than Privi. PV has Lapua for $0.989 each, so $445.05, or 0.25/use, to move up to an out-of-the-box (no case prep needed) and better-than-Federal brass. 450 of the Sierra bullets (purchased in 500 qty.) would be $184.67 at PV. 2.8 lbs 748 is $112.70 at PV. Anyway, shopping around is part of the process.

 

[zeke]

But if you factor in reusing the brass for even a minimum of four cycles it chops about $250.00 off that cost which brings the total down to around $475.00 which is almost half the cost of factory ammo. You have to figure in the savings of reusing the brass since it’s the major cost of reloading. And only four cycles is being pretty conservative.

course then you would have to figure in the 4 firings from the brass left over from buying factory fed match rounds? Too much math for me at this stage.

As it is, am more willing to go with Uncle Nick's conclusion of reloading closing in the cost of buying new. However, i stopped buying from PV years ago when their website changed, then their apparent pricing scheme.

And while i haven't used PV in some time and shipping wasn't included in the cost calc, Graph and Sons had noticeably cheaper shipping (for any bulk) last time i checked.

 

[jetinteriorguy]

course then you would have to figure in the 4 firings from the brass left over from buying factory fed match rounds? Too much math for me at this stage.

As it is, am more willing to go with Uncle Nick's conclusion of reloading closing in the cost of buying new. However, i stopped buying from PV years ago when their website changed, then their apparent pricing scheme.

And while i haven't used PV in some time and shipping wasn't included in the cost calc, Graph and Sons had noticeably cheaper shipping (for any bulk) last time i checked.

I wouldn’t really figure in the savings of reusing brass from the fired factory ammo, since I’m a reloader and don’t buy factory it wouldn’t figure in to the equation, which pretty much would include the majority of hand loaders. So you really can only do a direct comparison. But I do get where you’re coming from so not sure what is a real comparison vs our opinions/viewpoint. Now, if you do a similar comparison with most revolver ammo using either cast or plated/coated bullets then you’re definitely saving a substantial amount. But, 9mm on the other hand it’s a pretty close race. I still reload 9mm anyway just because I like to reload and I use either 124gr or 147gr bullets, no 115gr which is the most common purchased in bulk.

 

[Unclenick]

Well, you would reload the Federal brass, but then it's a handload and not a factory load. So, if you are comparing reloading cost to factory load cost, you can't really do that. Shipping cost may be a factor, but with factory loads, you are shipping roughly the same weight as your reload materials, so that should roughly cancel out.

Another way to look at it is to buy the factory loads, then get at least three reloads out of its brass, in which case, you count the primer, bullet, and powder but have zero expense for brass on the subsequent reloads since that came with the Factory round at no added charge.

An old recommendation for 308 Win was to reload it no more than four times when using military brass in an M14 or Garand (so, five loads, if you count the original factory load). The reason was that stretching the hard-headed mil-spec brass led to early head separations. Ejecting a sharp-edged, separated head into the guy on the next firing point was considered very bad form, so the competitors mostly pinched their brass with pliers at the end of that life cycle and took it to the metals yard when they had enough. But if you aren't firing the hard-headed military brass and are using a bolt gun or other weapon that doesn't extract fired cases violently, and for which resizing just barely past fire-formed size can be done, most new brass will give you more loads than that. Norma tests samples of their brass to make sure it can be reloaded ten times, and that includes FL resizing and brass for some cartridges that are harder on brass than the 308. I've gotten 20 out of 308 in my bolt guns, but I had lost a few to neck splits by then. The benchrest guys spend so much time prepping their brass that they do everything possible to preserve it, so annealing and never resizing very far are normal for them, and many get 50 reloads out of it. Board member Hummer70 said he has one 308 case that has been reloaded 158 times. Of course, he has shot a mountain of 308 in his competitive career, so the odds of him finding an outlier were always better than it is for most of us.

The bottom line is, I expect around ten or twelve reloads from most brass without making special effort other than not to over-resize.

 

[zeke]

Well, you would reload the Federal brass, but then it's a handload and not a factory load. So, if you are comparing reloading cost to factory load cost, you can't really do that.

If looking at the original premise
"For funzies, just approximated the current cost to buy components for 450 308 target rounds using sierra 168 hpbt. Including using the brass bout 4 times, cheaper to just buy boxes of Fed 168 hpbt match, and then get the brass"

So politely, yes i can do that. And the number of reloads from each cancels itself out. Nothing was said about only using factory rounds forever. Just 450 rounds was specified. And it was also specified "then get the brass", which implies reloading in the future.

Certainly if you count in the number of reloads gotten from the brass brought separately, it significantly reduces the cost over buying new brass every time. But that was not the premise. And if the premise was changed to reload past the original comparison, it would have to include reloading the brass from the factory rounds.

And while shipping charges were not included, Graph and Sons does not go by weight, unless referring too the weight limit they put on one haz package. Graphs does not indicate ammo has a haz fee, unless shipped by air.

One of the reasons am ordering bulk bullets/supplies from Graphs.

And after looking it appears PV also doesn't usually go by weight, but mainly by price of the order.

And while not specified, these are general loads to be used in a variety guns including various semis. They are only used for about 4 reloads. When loading for a target bolt specifically and separately, the brass lasts much longer.