Is ‘customer service’ replacing ‘quality control’ ?

While I certainly believe your hypothesis is certainly plausible, there are so many variables involved that I don't think we'll ever know for sure.

One observation I've seen are the customers themselves throw a monkey wrench in the whole theory. Seems to me some have become more demanding and unrealistic than ever before. Yes, customers deserve top notch service...especially after the sale. But at what point does it go too far? Where's the point of diminishing returns? Throwing in a customer demanding free repairs on a 20+ year old firearm with over 25,000 firings or a negative post all over the internet is just plain ridiculous. Does this get added into the equation?
 
After working for one of the "Big Three" for over 38 years, I found out early on that quality is never inspected in. It starts with superior design and engineering within what project managers refer to as the triple constraints: Time, Money, and Scope. No company ever has unlimited resources; otherwise every revolver would be of Korth quality, and cost upward from $2K.

We live in a different world. Compromises are made in every component of manufacturing, but not all of the compromises will make a material difference in the acceptable quality.

W. Edwards Deming brought SPC into reality in the early fifties. However, it was resisted by American manufacturing, so he took it to Japan. They accepted SPC as religion, and we can see where that led. I first saw one of his presentations, and I couldn't wait to take recommendations back to the plant where I worked (early 1970's). But it took near disasters before top management got religion.

In the mid-1980's, Motorola developed Six Sigma. That was the next great leap forward in SPC (quality, production, sales, finance, etc.). Now there are few companies who don't have Six Sigma black belts, green belts, etc. But, Six Sigma also has limits.

I am a former "bean counter", and it's not the bean counting that takes the toll. Finance folks typically apply only one third of the triple constraints. Typically it's marketing and sales types who have the hots to get producst to the market yesterday instead of today. And it's the engineers who limit the scope. (There are engineering limits.)

Competition in the market is also limiting. If your competing companies beat you to the market with the latest idea, you are playing catch-up. Then, what do you do?

Customer service is there to handle what may slip through the whole process and not be up to snuff.

Everyone in the organization thinks that their discipline is the most important. If you don't believe it, just ask ____________ (fill in the blank with your favorite department).
 
One observation I've seen are the customers themselves throw a monkey wrench in the whole theory. Seems to me some have become more demanding and unrealistic than ever before
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Like saying a companies min/max standards are unacceptable.They ain't gonna make everyone happy.But if Springfield or Kimber says it falls within their limits all you can do is pout.

I'm here to tell some of you heaven help you if you ever tear into your vehicle.If some of the stuff that is complained about on these forums truely bother some,they'll have a massive coronary when they see what's hidden by paint,plastic,and carpet.
 
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I take the approach as such. Firearms are like anything else mechanical that we purchase. Quality in general is good. No matter what we purchase there are going to be items that fail, have problems, just plain don't work. Example, I purchased a surround sound system. Installed the unit only to find the DVD player door would not open. Well, un-install, back to the store and get a replacement. It happens. Unfortunately with firearms the dealers are NOT representing the manufactures as in car dealerships, or say with Sears having service centers, so a faulty product must be returned to the factory for repairs. just think if you had to return your Ford, Chevy, Dodge to the factory for repairs. Quite the nightmare that would be. When you think about it firearms are one of the few products we buy that MUST be returned to the factory for warranty repair.
 
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But until someone comes up with a disposable gun I think it's a bad fit for the firearms industry.

That would be a HiPoint.

Their model is a cheap hand gun that breaks a lot that they keep running for you for free. They wait until you get tired of sending it in to get fixed and then it disappears. Since I won't buy a car like that why would I buy a gun like that?
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The Quality Control guys must have finished their coffee breaks, or maybe I got my pistol before the bean counters found out.

My .40 Cal Hi-point has never had a problem and it has right around 5,000 rounds through it. Don't confuse ugly with quality. :D
 
There's nothing in this that's specific to gun manufacturing. It's just modern American corporate culture.

The only duty is to earn a profit for the shareholder, therefore the only concern is how the next quarterly report looks - little to no concern for the long term. Concepts like providing a quality product for your customer or for that matter, decent jobs for your workers, are almost totally out the window.
 
There's nothing in this that's specific to gun manufacturing. It's just modern American corporate culture.

The only duty is to earn a profit for the shareholder, therefore the only concern is how the next quarterly report looks - little to no concern for the long term. Concepts like providing a quality product for your customer or for that matter, decent jobs for your workers, are almost totally out the window.
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Business isn't charity. The goal of business is profit. Shift the goal to making quality product or providing jobs and business falls apart.

You make quality product in the hopes that people will buy it. If they buy your competitors junk instead, sorry, you lose. Tough break.

You employ workers to produce product. If you can get cheaper workers or get by with none, so much the better.

Please don't ever forget what the purpose of business is. Especially shareholder owned corporations. Customers and workers are merely a means to an end. The company is run for the shareholder. It should be, they own it.
 
Every time I hear someone disparage the quality of new guns against those from the "good old days," a couple of things come to mind. First, we didn't have the internet in the "good old days" so the unfortunate person who got a bum gun wasn't able to post about it under different handles on multiple forums within hours, if not minutes, of experiencing the problem. Secondly, many if not most of the older used guns that people swoon over have survived today because they were either the better examples when they were made or because they had any QC issues ironed out decades before.
 
While your idea is sound, Lawnboy, the Shareholders being so shortsited, don't seem to understand what actually is in their best interest long-term. Having good, loyal customers as well as workers are both, VERY good, VERY profitable things in the long term. That might mean having a quarter in the red before several good quarers in the black, which seems to be unacceptable these days, despite the fact that it is a normal process for business.
 
While your idea is sound, Lawnboy, the Shareholders being so shortsited, don't seem to understand what actually is in their best interest long-term. Having good, loyal customers as well as workers are both, VERY good, VERY profitable things in the long term. That might mean having a quarter in the red before several good quarers in the black, which seems to be unacceptable these days, despite the fact that it is a normal process for business.
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It doesn't matter if they understand what is in their best interest. They are free to act, or direct those who work for them to act as they see fit.

I agree that loyal customers, quality products and happy workers looks like a recipe for long term business success. But in practice, how many companies can make that work? The reason so much throw-away junk exists is because that is what the market demands.

Customer Service has replaced quality control because that's what the market wanted. I don't like it either. But I've attempted to understand when and why it happened.

I deal with it every day, not just as a consumer, but as a business person. I'm forced by my employer to rush work, make whatever commitments and promises are required to pacify the customer and worry about fulfilling those promises later. If I can't fulfill them I'm supposed to fall back on the 16 hours of "expectation management" training they sent me to. I'd prefer to work another way, but there is no one out there who operates any other way. So I deal with it. I could be shoveling coal, so I don't complain, much.

My original plan, back in college, was to go to grad school and submit a thesis studying whether money could buy happiness. I was unable to find sufficient funding for my study.
 
I am a student of business and process. I have read articles on the "myth of growing a company is what successful companies do".

There is no one or even two answers to the situation described in the original post. Inside information is critical to determine the mind of a business. Those with the information do not tell.

With statistics of mean time to failure, and average use of a firearm, it would be plausible to conclude that a self defense pistol only needs enough quality for a few rounds (pulling this number from my magic hat, but say 200) because it seems reasonable that most guns are bought and fired rarely. This guess is based on empirical or observed gun range usage. I typically see paper work for gun purchases at all of the local gun stores I frequent. I rarely see the four pistol ranges very busy at all. I do not think owners are driving to remote areas to shoot that much because I do not come across that often either. But no real numbers here, just observation.

Even though it seems that customer service is replacing quality assurance I share this personal experience.

I must have the worst timing and luck of any consumer. I decided to jump on the SIG wagon by purchasing a new SIG P238 Stainless HD and a new SIG 556 rifle. Those that know some history will immediately recognize the ill timing of my decision.

Let me say I was not happy with the P238. I was not happy with the way Customer Service read me their scripted sheet on limp wristing while I explained that the slide stop notch was peeling away. It didn't take me but a couple of nanoseconds to have emails to SIG executives. And, to my surprise, during Shot Show, Mr. Ron Cohen pulled one of his employees to the side and said, "Make sure Mr. _________ is taken care of."

Even though I do not understand how such a gun makes it out the door and I have since sold or traded all of my SIG's because the fun of the brand was over for me, I really think they care. I really do.

As confused by the issues I experienced, and others have experienced, I still think they care.

With that said, the posts about business being in it for profit is true. And another truth is that the customer is in it for satisfaction. Profit is measurable. Quality is track-able. Satisfaction is transient, it is fickle, it ebbs and flows, and therefore loosing a reputation is tremendous.

Because of my experience I have with drawn from new and fancy in the pistol arena. I buy proven designs. I buy calibers designed for the pistol and its size. For instance the .380 is where I go for PPK/S. No miniaturized 1911 for me.

I am a software engineer. At the company I work I developed one of the main features. The software is number one in its area. There are 100's of thousands of users that use my software everyday. On the side I wrote a Gun Log app for the iPhone. There are lots and lots of users. However the app only has 18 reviews. My point is, getting someone to say something works and they like it is not something commonly done.

I often think of General Motors. I was brand loyal to the end. Even as my new GM products had more and more issues and seemed to get uglier and uglier and held strong. Until I got a Honda. No GM products anymore. Since I left GM has been through a lot. And what makes me even madder at GM is now, when they have to win us back, they start making a sharp looking line up. Why didn't they do it when we were "all" there? Bozos!

I still say, for me to get a GM the CEO has to get on TV and strip down and crawl through broken glass backwards while apologizing before I will buy one again.

I will save the money to buy a quality product. If a quality pistol really costs $1700.00 then I will get motivated, do extra work and get one. Now, I really don't think it should cost $1700.00 for a quality gun that the company can afford to make, that is just an example.

Since my bump with SIG I have bought...
1 Revolver
3 9mm Semi-Auto's
1 5.56 "Black" rifle

I have in my queue several other items that will come on board next year. None are SIG. I lost my fascination with them. But I do think Mr. Cohen cares. I know that the guys in customer service that I call the "Scotts" care as well. I still thank them for taking care of me and wish them well.

I share this personal experience to give insight into the original post. This is from the heart and first hand. I am confident that there are many stories like mine with every brand of firearm available. I recognize that and hope that my latest purchases continue to run well. If my P238 had been rock solid I would have added three other Sigs that were on my list and have since been removed. Companies can't win them all and neither can the consumer.

I still scratch my head and wonder though. I wonder what they were thinking.
 
Yes. Customer service and "lifetime warrenties" are thrust upon us as cheap substitutes for high quality and making guns right from the start.

If its got a lifetime warrenty, that is a gun I will not own.
 
As "Lawnboy"...

...puts it, business is not a charity.

Businesses are forced into the charity side by progressive (socialist) governmental bodies. This is most easily characterized by the Internal Revenue Service. The IRS is a puppet of the President and Congress.

The mantra goes something like, "Give money/time to the local community". Otherwise the IRS lawyers and accountants will occupy permanent office space at your company, and your expenses will undergo a rectal exam that would make your proctologist proud.

Terms like "community giving" are bandied about, as though this giving, whether in the form of donated labor or actual cash, were voluntary, and the corporation was somehow philanthropic in nature. The term "coerced altruism", while an oxymoron, is apropos in its use.

The company I for which I worked, required all employees to donate 16 hours annually to charitable work. Multiply that by all the employees and the average hourly rate (salaried and hourly), and you can see that a few thousand employees can add up very quickly. Yes, the company gets a tax deduction, but it also lost that much in productivity.

One of the charities we assisted was a "food pantry". They also got food and used clothing to distribute to the needy. We actually did a brief industrial engineering survey to find out how they could improve their handling and distribution of food and clothing. We discovered that each item was handled an average of more than five times, from coming in the door at the facility, to distribution to the needy. We suggested that our material handling engineering department help them design a smoother way to handle things, but we were rebuffed by the charity's management.

The best way for the community to improve, is for the corporation to make as much money as possible, enriching the stockholders and employees. Every dime taken out in charitable giving is one less dime that can be devoted to improving the product and raising quality. Those increased profits can't be kept under the mattress; they are used by stockholders to buy "stuff", and keep the economy growing.

One of the best examples of a not-so-benign powerful government, is none other than the notorious Internal Lock, now installed on Smith & Wesson revolvers. How much design, engineering, and material dollars were wasted on something that didn't add one cent to the value of the product? No one can point to one life saved by the IL, while there is documented evidence that its presence kept the revolver from performing as designed.

Now, add that debacle to all the other debacles, and one can readily see why the manufacturing base in this country is nearly into a death spiral.
 
Lawnboy said:

Business isn't charity. The goal of business is profit. Shift the goal to making quality product or providing jobs and business falls apart.

You make quality product in the hopes that people will buy it. If they buy your competitors junk instead, sorry, you lose. Tough break.
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Now, imagine if Milt Sparks thought like that?
 
lawnboy said:
Business isn't charity. The goal of business is profit. Shift the goal to making quality product or providing jobs and business falls apart.
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The missing link in your assumption is that quality products and good jobs very often lead to higher profits.

MANY businesses understand this concept.

There are 3 major problems (and a number of problems associated with and/or caused by them) in the business world today.

1)Consumer demand for the lowest price, while giving lip service but not cash to quality.

2)The demand by shareholders for EVER INCREASING profit. It's not the "drive for profit" that's a problem, it's that 10% is only good enough if last quarter was 8%. If last quarter was 10, this one better be 12. You don't have to be an economist to under stand that such a thing is unsustainable. Something has got to give and with...

3)Union demands for ever increasing benefits and wages....

It's not going to be labor costs that decrease. Raw material is forever more and more expensive, energy, taxes of all kinds, government regulations and associated fees, insurance and lawsuits....

What's left to sacrifice?


Only quality. People will talk about quality and buy junk because it's "cheap". If you can make junk and people buy junk and all you've got to do is service the occasional junk that comes back, with employees that you already have anyway,

Why the heck not?


THAT'S why "customer service", which is a joke mostly also, is over taking "quality" and it's the reason why a few, small, "high-priced" companies can survive in a world of junk and "warranties".... There are still enough people willing to pay for quality and precision to keep a small, quality oriented, company busy but, rarely, a large one.
 
What is a "quality product"? It is a product that meets the design criteria for the application.

A "quality" interior paint designed for rental property owners is probably has a design life of only 2 to 5 years, and will cost >$50 for a 5 gal bucket.

A quality exterior paint may be rated for 20 years life, and 5 or 10 times more. It would not make sense to paint the inside of a rental with the more expensive outdoor paint when you know that the interior will be repained when the renters leave. Right.

Proper product for the job. Same goes for industrial tools verses occational home use tools. How many of you guys would purchase a $2000 soldering iron with replaceable $20 each temperature controlled tips?? Most would purchase a >$35 home use soldering iron. Right. Both are quality products for their designed purpose.

I don't think we will ever see Hi Point winning a military contract, but that is not their customer base.

Quality always starts with design. What is the item designed for, and how can the product be manufactured to meet that design target at the lowest possible total cost. A quality design will always produce a "quality" product for the designed purpose. Always remember "the designed purpose"

My last years of working for someone else were doing root cause failure analysis of new designs. We were always striving for "Zero Defects", as in the old 60's terms, and worked hard to that end, but even when you have a 100% functional final inspection, things could still fail in the field.
 
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