From: Ivan8883 6-17-99 434 PMEDT I am glad you did not blast me for being anti Latino or anti immigrant. I got blasted enough. I understand the history of old California and how the non Spanish settlers there overthrew their Spanish benefactors and enabled US to seize California during War with Mexico which we know was a war of aggresion against Mexico. I perhaps have been getting bad info on so called revoluntionary movement against Us in your state.But there is a big Illegal immigration problem out therewhich I see as caused by the destruction of the Mexican middle class by Klinton and his cronies on Wall Street when the Mexican Peso was devalued a few years ago to save big investments of Wall Steeet at the expense of the Mexican middle class which has been nearly wiped out. People are leaving Mexico any way they cansince the economy of Mexico has been really blasrted by Klinton and his Bankster buddies. I just do not think the average person really understands what the Global Plantation Economy is doing to the entire planet. They understood inChiapas a while back when the people saw what Nafta would do to their lively hood. I am probably getting away into left fieldbut destruction of Mexican economy does bring flood of unfortunate people to El Norte. Ivan
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Is California our South?
- Thread starter Rob Pincus
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Ivan,
I think the problem with illegal immigration has been around way before the devaluation of the peso. It is a problem in all the stats that border mexico. CA also gets a lot of illegals from Asian.
California was a lot of illegals cuz there is oppurtunity. As hi-tech as the state is, there is still a lot of land devoted to agriculture. Many illegal come up and do work that american citizens would do chump change.
THe uprising in Chipas was not related to NAFTA. the natives people there wanted control and they wanted to get rid of corrupt government.
Although clinton has some hand in the illegal immigration north, the problem has existed long since before clinton took office, and will exist as long as America is the land of oppurtunity.
I think the problem with illegal immigration has been around way before the devaluation of the peso. It is a problem in all the stats that border mexico. CA also gets a lot of illegals from Asian.
California was a lot of illegals cuz there is oppurtunity. As hi-tech as the state is, there is still a lot of land devoted to agriculture. Many illegal come up and do work that american citizens would do chump change.
THe uprising in Chipas was not related to NAFTA. the natives people there wanted control and they wanted to get rid of corrupt government.
Although clinton has some hand in the illegal immigration north, the problem has existed long since before clinton took office, and will exist as long as America is the land of oppurtunity.
Don Morgan
New member
Please do not hang out to dry just yet, I know it looks bad for us Kalifornians right now. We knew we would be in for the fight of our lives with Gray Davis getting in as Gov., especially with his friends Feinstein, Boxer, and Parata right there to support his every move. I'm constantly sending letters to Pete Knight 17th District of CA informing him of the situation that I feel is not IAW the 2nd Amendment. I have in the past sent letters to Davis, Boxer, Feinstein, and Parata with no response from any of their offices with the exception of the Gov. Office that they have received my E-mail. I have called the Gov Office several times voicing my concerns that SB 23 and SB 15 were not going to help in any way solve his crime problems, but to only benefit the criminal and gang members on the street. I continually talk with business owners, friends, and neighbors about the issues only to find out that 95% of them feel the same as I do, and that we have all stop shopping at K-Mart. Yes we are fighting the issues, but our problem still lays within the NRA preaching to the choir and not to the uneducated of the knowledge of the truth of firearms, consequently all they ever hear are the lies that are fed to them through the News Media from the politicians. Off My Soap Box Now wish us luck as we will need your support as you well know this could spread like wild fire throughout the US.
O
olazul
Guest
Ivan,
Devaluation of the peso destroying the middle class of mexico? If this is the case the destruction started before I was born in 64'. The peso has been devalued more frequently than Klintons morals. I remember when NAFTA first was adopted. If anything it led to a mighty increase in in the worth of the peso. How do I know this? Because three months earlier a six pack of suds was around 2$ US. As soon as NAFTA passed, the same sixer was 5$ US. Other staples such as foodstuffs and gas were also exhorbitantly high compared to the dollar. They did this by introducing the "new peso"(2 or 3/$) since the "old peso" was between 2000-4000/US dollar. I stopped going to MEX for surfing expeditions because I felt I was getting totally ripped off. I am not an economist, but Mexico was ripe for a HUGE devaluation and probably needs another.
No, if your looking for a reason for the declining middle class in Mex look at thier completely corrupt government(you think the US is bad?). Cops get paid ~ 40$ US a month and must accept bribes to get by, same for judges. Locals are VERY afraid of cops because anytime they show up it is not to "protect and serve" but to get paid. Government workers are even worse. I know the US has its corruption but south of the border it is orders of magnitude larger. Have you ever even crossed a border into a central american country or Mexico? The graft is amazing. The gov't appropriated funds to pave a new highway 'one' down Baja about 20 yrs ago. By the time everyone got paid off they only had enough money to paint the old road black. The wealth of the nation is centered in very few hands. This combined with poor(if any) education for the average citizen and an economy based around subsistence farming is the culprit. They cannot even manufacture a vehicle from scratch, much less set up a factory for semiconductors, fiber optics, etc. etc. etc. Sorry, can't lay this on the US.
Don't get me wrong, I love central america and Mexico. I have spent quite a bit of time there and the people and culture are great. I have great respect for thier resourcefulness and work ethic. But to hear that thier problems stem from the US is garbage.
The reason for illegal immigration is really very simple. We in the US are have's. The vast majority in Mexico are have not's. This is not because the big bad US is oppressing the poor masses. The problem is inherent in thier culture. To think that Mexicans are swarming into the US to vote to secede is ludicrous. Why did they come here to begin with? It's better than where they came from, thats why.
Wall street. There is no evil here. "Greed is good". Supply and demand economics, it's like nature- sometimes brutal. It's called democracy. We generally like it.
Chiapas? Do you know who lives in chiapas? Mexicans fighting against the US "banksters"? Not. INDIGINES live in chiapas. Indigines are descendants of the mayans. They are a very proud people who are tied to the earth by farming. They have a history of fighting an oppressive gov't in Guatemala and now somewhat in Mexico. I could go on about this uprising but I won't bore you guys.
Illegal immigration is a problem in So. Cal. and there are a few measures that are going to the supreme court that may help.
I only wish the average citizen in Kali was as devoted to the 2nd ammendment as they are to the others. You think after the LA riots people would call BS on these anti gun measures. The next few years will certainly be interesting around here. I'm hoping thte pendulum will start swinging the other way, I certainly am trying to do my part.
Olazul
Devaluation of the peso destroying the middle class of mexico? If this is the case the destruction started before I was born in 64'. The peso has been devalued more frequently than Klintons morals. I remember when NAFTA first was adopted. If anything it led to a mighty increase in in the worth of the peso. How do I know this? Because three months earlier a six pack of suds was around 2$ US. As soon as NAFTA passed, the same sixer was 5$ US. Other staples such as foodstuffs and gas were also exhorbitantly high compared to the dollar. They did this by introducing the "new peso"(2 or 3/$) since the "old peso" was between 2000-4000/US dollar. I stopped going to MEX for surfing expeditions because I felt I was getting totally ripped off. I am not an economist, but Mexico was ripe for a HUGE devaluation and probably needs another.
No, if your looking for a reason for the declining middle class in Mex look at thier completely corrupt government(you think the US is bad?). Cops get paid ~ 40$ US a month and must accept bribes to get by, same for judges. Locals are VERY afraid of cops because anytime they show up it is not to "protect and serve" but to get paid. Government workers are even worse. I know the US has its corruption but south of the border it is orders of magnitude larger. Have you ever even crossed a border into a central american country or Mexico? The graft is amazing. The gov't appropriated funds to pave a new highway 'one' down Baja about 20 yrs ago. By the time everyone got paid off they only had enough money to paint the old road black. The wealth of the nation is centered in very few hands. This combined with poor(if any) education for the average citizen and an economy based around subsistence farming is the culprit. They cannot even manufacture a vehicle from scratch, much less set up a factory for semiconductors, fiber optics, etc. etc. etc. Sorry, can't lay this on the US.
Don't get me wrong, I love central america and Mexico. I have spent quite a bit of time there and the people and culture are great. I have great respect for thier resourcefulness and work ethic. But to hear that thier problems stem from the US is garbage.
The reason for illegal immigration is really very simple. We in the US are have's. The vast majority in Mexico are have not's. This is not because the big bad US is oppressing the poor masses. The problem is inherent in thier culture. To think that Mexicans are swarming into the US to vote to secede is ludicrous. Why did they come here to begin with? It's better than where they came from, thats why.
Wall street. There is no evil here. "Greed is good". Supply and demand economics, it's like nature- sometimes brutal. It's called democracy. We generally like it.
Chiapas? Do you know who lives in chiapas? Mexicans fighting against the US "banksters"? Not. INDIGINES live in chiapas. Indigines are descendants of the mayans. They are a very proud people who are tied to the earth by farming. They have a history of fighting an oppressive gov't in Guatemala and now somewhat in Mexico. I could go on about this uprising but I won't bore you guys.
Illegal immigration is a problem in So. Cal. and there are a few measures that are going to the supreme court that may help.
I only wish the average citizen in Kali was as devoted to the 2nd ammendment as they are to the others. You think after the LA riots people would call BS on these anti gun measures. The next few years will certainly be interesting around here. I'm hoping thte pendulum will start swinging the other way, I certainly am trying to do my part.
Olazul
Olazul
What we need is another set of roits like we did after the first Rodney King Verdicts.
My friend who was in LA at the time said that some a lot of people got pissed cuz they didn't realize there were waiting periods "for them" they thought the waiting periods only applied to criminals. I think the lessons learned in 1991 have been forgotten.
What we need is another set of roits like we did after the first Rodney King Verdicts.
My friend who was in LA at the time said that some a lot of people got pissed cuz they didn't realize there were waiting periods "for them" they thought the waiting periods only applied to criminals. I think the lessons learned in 1991 have been forgotten.
From: Ivan8883 6-17-99 920PM EDT Roger to Chink and Ozabul on corruption of government in general in Mexico and Oppresion of Mayans in Chiapas by local and central govenments of Mexico.I understand that and yes I have been 100miles south of Juarez. It was years ago. Nic epeople nice everything,but my theme is that since the middle sixties the economies of both nations have gone down hilland I will bet that the average Mexican lived better then than he does today and that goes for the average Ameican worker,There was very little illegal immigration into Us in mid sixties compared to today when things are so bad for people in Mexicoand getting bad for workers in America.,with most Us industry gone,Us dollar worth 10% of what it was in 1966,silver taken out of Us currency in 1964 and Nixon eliminating gold backing our currencycausing beginning of spiraling paper debt, one family provider has disapeared from American family,all forms of taxation increased on workers . The wealth of America had been transfered to countries like Mexico where any workers "lucky" enough to work in American factories are paid sub standard wages and of coarse the products they produce in Mexico cannot be afforded by the average Mexican anyway and these products are shipped back to Us. result is that Big Corporations make the Profit:American workers are eliminated from payroll and Mexican workers get slave wages by Corporations who of coarse pay off both corrupt politicos in America and Mexico! In my opinion, under the emerging Global PLantation all over the world,living stadards will keep sinking and yes ,the poorer people will migrate to the richer areas who willnot be richer for long as Banksters or Corporations or what ever you wanrt to call the Elites who control world economies move for ultimate control .And of coarse gun control is high up in the agenda of NWO. Media ,whether, TV or newspapers wont touch the subject of economic subjugation of peoples of the world by Elites who run Federal Reserve System(the private bank that literaly controls every facet of our economic livesand to whom we are its indentured serfs).Wjhen you pay your tax to IRS<which is the collecting agent of Federal Reserve System,you are paying interest on National debt createdby the Federal Reserve System over many decades of printing paper money backed by Debt.Did I go off the subject? Maybe not as I tried to tie it togehterinto one big economic scam by elitesagainst workers everywhere. President Wilson knew he signed over our economic freedom to Federal Reserve System,but he did it anyway. Ivan
O
olazul
Guest
Ivan,
I am going to bow out here. Your argument is ever changing and fluid and therefore impossible to discuss intelligently. Instead of backing up a post you just change your position on the next one.
Rob,
Sorry for cluttering up your topic. I couldn' t let this one go by though.
Olazul
[This message has been edited by olazul (edited June 18, 1999).]
I am going to bow out here. Your argument is ever changing and fluid and therefore impossible to discuss intelligently. Instead of backing up a post you just change your position on the next one.
Rob,
Sorry for cluttering up your topic. I couldn' t let this one go by though.
Olazul
[This message has been edited by olazul (edited June 18, 1999).]
Rob Pincus
New member
I think we have strayed from my original intent..
This thread is closed, I just wanted to see how many people saw the parallels I saw.
Chink,
You made an excellent observation about who had what to lose.... a point that the Anti's are probly counting on.
This thread is closed, I just wanted to see how many people saw the parallels I saw.
Chink,
You made an excellent observation about who had what to lose.... a point that the Anti's are probly counting on.
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