Is anyone else fed up with the extremism on both sides of the gun/gun control debate?

Here's my one give... The gun show sale by private citizen

And completely ineffective unless you require a background check/4473 on all private sales ....which would be a de facto registration system and opens the door to making felons of every schmuck who ever misplaces paperwork on any gun they sold ......

.... anything they can do to expand their power and discourage ownership, especially things they only have to threaten to do .....
 
And completely ineffective unless you require a background check/4473 on all private sales
I'm not even sure how that would be implemented. The 4473 exists specifically for the use of FFL's. The ATF won't send a bundle of those to a private citizen, and even if they did, the regulations are incompatible.

You'd need a whole new set of regulations dictating how individuals would need to keep records, and the ATF sure doesn't have the manpower to do inspections.

Same goes for the NICS system.

Such an apparatus would require rewriting huge portions of § 922.
 
You'd need a whole new set of regulations dictating how individuals would need to keep records, and the ATF sure doesn't have the manpower to do inspections.

I would submit that they would not enforce it on everyone uniformly- the power is in the threat to use it. How many people get prosecuted for attempted purchase by a prohibited person/lying on a 4473 as it is now? These should be slam-dunk cases, right? Yet the only actions I see are against the FFLs themselves. The Sandy Point nutter tried to buy a gun- was he charged?

" Law abiding citizens can not be ruled, so laws must be passed to make them criminals ...."
 
We cant give anymore. You give them a inch they want to take a yard...

We have to stop thinking that the government is the answer to all our problems, They are not they are the cause of most of them. I always said anything the government touches turns to crap, just look at welfare, dyfes you see how well they work and that is only 2 to mention. The next wonderful thing will be health care. Wait and see how well that will turn out for us all...

I tired of them saying let taxes them more that will fix it. Yeah tax the people that buy the guns legally. Cause the criminals that use the guns for nothing but bad will be the first ones in that tax line....

I don't need uncle SAM reaching deeper into my pockets to fix more of the problems they have created. They tax us and they live happy on the high hog while we try to make our bills every month. They don't need guns they have state police or secret service to protect them.(Which our tax dollar pays for)
But we should let them tell us what we need in our lives...
NO THANK YOU
 
Xaak said:
. . . . So why can't we set up transfer stations at the gun shows that do a background check for a reasonable fee? I know for one, I would be happy to get a good price for my less used, sellable firearms, knowing that I was selling it to someone that was legally allowed to purchase it. . . . .

My feeling is, if the gun show personal sale went through a transfer station, I'd be cool with it. Hell, I'd likely use it. . . .
As far as I know, there's nothing stopping you from getting an FFL to do the transfer for you. That said, I'll stand by what I've said in other threads: There is no gun show loophole. It's a fiction.

Welcome to The Firing Line, Xaak!
 
What? And undermine their power? If they actually prosecuted these felons, then they'd have to do some actual work..... and the problem would get smaller. Smaller Problem = Smaller Budget.

Far better to use the resources they have to make more potential criminals, rather than deal with the ones they have in a slam dunk case.......

Selective enforcement is a power all it's own ....... they can make people jump just by threatening to do something, without actually haveing to do anything at all ..... leaves more time for politically motivated activities like F&F ......

@JimBob

Don't know how I missed this post from you but even though you phrased everything in a humorous manner, the fact remains that you're absolutely right.

It is about next years budget and a smoke and mirror display to make it appear that they are getting "something" done.

It's all nonsense and I think we all know this.

Enforcing the law would do so much more good than any ban or new law.

It's really very simple. "IF YOU ARE FLAGGED AS TRYING TO PURCHASE A GUN UNLAWFULLY AT A GUN SHOP AND YOUR BACKGROUND CHECK SHOWS YOU HAVE A FELONY RELATED TO DRUG TRAFFICKING OR FIREARMS THEN YOU SHALL BE ARRESTED AND PROSECUTED TO THE FULL EXTENT OF THE LAW."

The Above Is An Actual Law That Is Not Being Enforced! So I'm Trying To Make Those Who Don't Know About It Into The Informed.

Sorry for the all caps method of posting but that law should be shouted from the rooftops. It should be shouted from the NRA, it should be a rallying point.

Not only does repeating the non-enforcement of this law show that we are trying to be part of the solution but it also shows that we are responsible folks and not, what they perceive as "Gun Nuts."

I wish I could swear but I can't and won't but it just enrages me that we've got perfectly good laws on the books that are not being enforced.

Yes there are horrible shootings and massacres and not all of them can be stopped but we can reduce a fair amount of crime by locking up the criminals who are attempting to purchase a gun. I mean it's a no brainer. Just do it already Gosh Dangit!
 
overthere said:
- When people say that there is no such things as gun owner responsibilities, only gun owner rights. Tiresome as it is, the analogy with the first amendment not giving the right to yell 'fire' in a movie theater is relevant. There need to be responsibilities that come along with gun ownership, such as making a reasonable effort in keeping guns away from minors and other individuals that should not have access to guns (as one example). To state that the second amendment should infer only rights and no responsibilities is invalid. There are regulations around gun ownership and there needs to be regulations around gun ownership.
Are you aware that Connecticut is, in many ways, one of the most highly-regulated states insofar as firearms are concerned? I have previously posted in other threads (and maybe in this one) all the laws that were in effect, and which did nothing to prevent the Sandy Hook massacre:

* State AWB in force
* Mandatory locked storage of all firearms if minors in the house
* Stolen or lost guns must be reported to police within 72 hours
* Mandatory 8-hour (minimum) class for CCW, mandatory state-certified class for hunting license
* ALL handgun sales (even private) must have pre-approval from state police, and buyer must have permit or certificate of eligibility

I don't think anyone is arguing that gun owners should not be responsible for their actions. But you analogy of yelling "Fire!" in a theater is flawed. It is NOT illegal to do so. However, it IS illegal to do if there is no fire, and your purpose is only to induce panic. To relate that to firearms, it should not be illegal to own, carry or shoot firearms, but it should be (and it is) illegal to use a firearm to commit a crime (such as robbery, assault, or murder).

Since those acts are already illegal, and since it has been shown that more gun control laws cannot prevent such crimes, why should be be in favor of enacting yet more useless, ineffective laws on top of the approximately 20,000 gun laws already in effect around the country?
 
Last edited:
Don't know how I missed this post from you but even though you phrased everything in a humorous manner, the fact remains that you're absolutely right.

Oh, I was not trying to be funny .....

...... but if I did not laugh at the absurdity of it all, there'd be trouble.

The idea that we need more laws, when the folks in charge of this stuff can't or won't enforce the stuff on the books already is just ludicrous..... Laws only have an effect on those worried about breaking them.

Yet they just keep on piling them on, like they are doing something constructive ......

..... at some point, folks will, out of frustration, reach a point where enough is enough, and they'll say, "Shiny! Let's be Bad Guys!"
 
Illinois legislation/Emmanual/Quinn is currently trying to pass an all semi-automatic ban. With rumors that even a pump shotgun may be outlawed. I do not think that we should give any ground to these people, as they look as the ground giving as a stepping stone to the next step.
 
I'm not even sure how that would be implemented. The 4473 exists specifically for the use of FFL's. The ATF won't send a bundle of those to a private citizen, and even if they did, the regulations are incompatible.

You'd need a whole new set of regulations dictating how individuals would need to keep records, and the ATF sure doesn't have the manpower to do inspections.

Same goes for the NICS system.

Such an apparatus would require rewriting huge portions of § 922.

No, it wouldn't. All they would have to do is require that every sale go through a dealer. That way any honest person where I live would have to pay $40 plus sales tax on any private sale. Or they could require that dealers complete a transfer for some arbitrary fee, say, $10. Then the buyer and seller would stand in line an hour while the dealer completed sales to his customers.

It would be almost impossible to enforce.
 
Schumer has a very specific implementation plan in his bill.
Thanks for the link. I didn't know it had a draft or a number yet.

So, the bill states that private individuals need to conduct the transfer through an FFL or a law enforcement agency. An exception exists for folks with concealed-carry permits. There's a specific section exempting private sellers from keeping records.
 
If my position seems extreme to anyone, I do not apologize. Perhpas growing up in Free AZ has given me what someone from New Jersey or NYC might call a "warped" viewpoint on firearms and unilateral personal disarmament, but I believe I am closer to what our Founding Fathers had, than what they twisters of words have in mind.

Crimesofthefew.jpg


domestic1.jpg


posterproject1-1.jpg


911x4.jpg


toolused1.jpg


zerokilled.jpg
 
@jimbob86

When you're right you're right. We don't need a gun laws wing of a law library, simply need to enforce the laws that we already have. Enough of the legislation cause it's not going to stop anything.

Lets start with enforcing existing laws and start arresting criminals who get flagged at gun shops while trying to buy a gun. That's one heck of a start.

@Armoredman

Special mention for posting all the motivators. They were fun to look at/read.
 
Yeah, you can't give an inch to the anti-gun campaign. Logic truly doesn't enter into the picture when these people come out to protest. The tragedy in Connecticut is an example of how gun restrictions do not prevent crime. The Brady Campaign ranks Connecticut as having the 5th toughest gun control in the nation. And they did nothing to stop this maniac. I would argue that the strongest firearm restrictions imagineable would not be nearly as effective at saving lives in a school shooting as a few teachers carrying concealed firearms. But you wont be able to sell the idea to anti-gun people-- trust me, I've tried.

The simple fact is that a person who is simply "anti-gun" is not operating logically, but emotionally. Firearms frighten them. Therefore, we need to pass laws that will eventually uninvent firearms altogether and also eliminate the desire of humans to do harm to other humans. These people exist in a fantasy. When you allow them to restrict firearm ownership, the failure of these new restrictions to reduce gun violence only proves to them that further restrictions are necessary.
 
“It is beyond the scope of this forum but an out of control scientist in a home lab could do way more than any gun or all the guns ever created...”

This is one of the most insightful statements I have ever seen on the internet. I would modify the statement to include scientists and criminal or terrorist or government labs and I have read books on the Soviet Union and United States bio-weapons programs that will scare your socks off. Whether for population control or terrorism or a natural mutation event, this is by far my worst nightmare, even more than nuclear war or conventional war or economic collapse or food or water shortages or a natural disaster.

In 1950 when I was a little boy there were around 150 million people in the United States and around 2.5 billion people in the world, today there are around 315 million people in the United States and getting close to 7 billion people in the world, in fifty years there will probably be around 500 million people in the United States and over 10 billion people in the world. To a certain extent an expanding economy depends on an expanding population. Human over population is the greatest danger to all living creatures on this planet including ourselves, yet you hear of very few people talking about it, let alone high level people. Our planet has limited resources and more people sharing finite resources means more haves and have-nots which means more stressed out and hateful and resentful people which might increase violent events such as the recent school shooting. Logically if a certain percentage of the population are born with or develop mental health problems and there are substantially more people, then more of these violent people and violent events will also probably occur. In a more crowded and complex and stressed out world, governments will strive for even more control and will continue to chip away at our freedoms and our constitutional rights especially the 2nd amendment.

With that in mind I would say to not give any ground or compromise whatsoever, but I say that knowing that strategy works only if it wins or loses less ground than compromise would have.

Reminds me of the famous statement made by I believe a Russian General after the end of the Winter War with Finland who said something like this, “We won just enough ground to bury our dead!”
 
Lets start with enforcing existing laws and start arresting criminals who get flagged at gun shops while trying to buy a gun. That's one heck of a start.

This. But first the FBI needs a computer system that is slightly better than the one used by the Gravel Switch, Kentucky police department. I got delayed on my last purchased and never did get a call back, thank God for automatic proceed. I'm sorry but that is ridiculous.

My rough and tumultuous past includes a dropped assault charge when I was 18 over a fistfight and a PI charge a few months ago (apparently it is illegal to even ride in a vehicle after drinking two beers, at least it is when that town needs money that month). I did some hard time for that. Three hours of filling out paperwork at the PD and a $400 fine. Public Enemy Number 1 here.

The point I'm trying to make is that the whole system is pretty much a joke. Has anyone ever even been arrested after a NICS denial? Has it ever prevented a crime? If not, what is it besides an annoyance and a drain on public funds?

So what can we do? Wait, what was that thing we used to do? Oh yeah, we strapped killers and rapists to an electric chair or put a noose around their neck. The rest of the lowlifes got thrown in a deep dark hole somewhere for several years. It won't make this Never Neverland, but it couldn't hurt.
 
The Second Amendment does not, has not, and will not guarantee unregulated access to and use of all arms. It is pointless to pretend otherwise.

Actually, I believe it does. That's why it was written that way. As an absolute check on the lawful (constitutional) behavior of the govt. The fact that beyond a handful of years following the founding, it was not completely successful is a different argument.

On the Federal level, it actually was fairly successful for a fairly long time. Where, and when was the first Federal gun control law? 1934? earlier?

Where we first saw serious erosion was at the state and local level. Now, under the system our founders set up, states and localities were intended to operate under the State Constitutions, and while most either directly copy, or closely mirror the Federal Constitution, there are differences in the language of many of the state's versions of the Fed 2nd Amendment.

The fact that we have accepted so much infringment for so long that nearly all consider some degree of infringment the natural order of things does not mean that the infringements do not exist. Only that we no longer think of them as tyranny.

The legal concept that things are "bad" goes back to feudal nobility. Those selfless enlightened rulers of that gentle age were always loathe to enhance their personal wealth. Right.

The idea that things are "bad" or "evil" was used as a way for the rich to get richer. Your wagon broke loose, ran over a peasant, and killed him, poor lad! your wagon is a dangerous evil thing, and must be surrendered to the crown (or their personal representative in this vicinity), as penalty.

What/ no, thou canst do that, twas an accident!

Well, we could throw you in goal, instead.....

Er, the reigns, my good sir!

The wagon, or the mill, or whatever caused some harm, taken (or banned) by the crown, all for the public good, of course...I see the same concept still at work today.

Today, we only take the "bad" things from bad people, which I gather includes cash, boats, cars, houses, etc., (all ill gotten gains), and of course, the guns (dangerous), and the dope (illegal), etc......

But that's not all they do, nor all they want, now is it? Bad people hurt & kill with guns, so all the guns have to go. That's their mantra, and in nearly 50 years of personal observation, I have yet to see them back off from it. The most reasonable thing I have ever seen the anti gunners do is stop shrieking their message when there is clearly little or no support (such as after 9/11). The don't ever stop saying it, but the do stop shrieking it when its very clear no one is really listening.

Now a decade and some goes by, and there hasn't been another clear slap in the face (or punch in the gut) to remind the insulated elite what the rest of the world has to deal with daily. So they go back to their old, comfortable ways, thinking that the greatest threat to their life and safety is guns in the hands of people who don't work for them. Oh, and they are generous enough to include our safety in that viewpoint, as well. After all, the little people do deserve something....

And where does our obsession with what people own (and lawfully use) come from, if not the above greed of the elite? Look back, before the 20th century, virtually no one gave a rat's behind about what guns you owned, or how many. All that mattered was what you DID with them. And all that mattered about what you did with them was if you were shooting people for fun and profit. That was a serious crime. What you did with your guns short of violence on others was of no concern to anyone, really. (and no I'm not forgetting market hunting or poaching, but that's another issue).

We had shooting galleries as public entertainment in our inner cities in those days! And by and large, the only things that got shot were the targets in the galleries! Cops often didn't carry guns as they walked their beats in those very same places! They did carry a good stout stick, and were quite given to using it, to stop trouble. Quite often, those arrested made nearly full recoveries. And neither the patrolmen, nor the cities got sued, either.

(shifting gears)
Another thing that further clouds all discussion is terminology. Our side has defintions that we believe are just, right and proper. But so does the other side. They are wrong, but refuse to see it.

They see "gunowner" as anyone who is holding (or has access to) a firearm. And they don't make a moral distinction between those who act responsbily with arms, and those who don't. To them, because some "gunowners" are bad, all are bad. To them, anyone who steps off the pavement with a gun is a "hunter". From the trophy hunter to the punks who shoot up road signs and the insulators from power lines, they are all the same, to them.

Oddly enough, shooting small birds with expensive shotguns does not seem to send them into mouth foaming frenzy. They just consider it distasteful.

We think of gunowners and hunters as decent, responsible people, like ourselves, and denounce those who are not.

Neither side is as pure as the driven...hypocrites abound. The biggest ones I see are on the anti side (that may be tunnel vision, but I doubt it), as most if not virtually all of those demanding gun bans are either armed themselves, or protected by paid professionals, with guns.
(got more, will save it for later..:D)
 
Back
Top