Is anyone else fed up with the extremism on both sides of the gun/gun control debate?

myshoulderissore said:
I hate the fact that most pro-gun arguments I hear at a local level are along the lines of Gollum ideals, rather than thoughtful ideas.
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And I am offended that you would characterize my position, which advocates nothing more "extreme" than adhering to what is supposed to be the highest law of the land, as being anything other than thoughtful. I am a Vietnam veteran, I am a senior citizen, I have a ppst-graduate professional degree from a respected university, I am a direct descendant of a law school professor and (farther back) a Supreme Court justice. My position is not taken lightly or without thought. My position is not so much "pro-gun" as it is "pro-Constitution."

I'm all in favor of thoughtful ideas, BUT they have to be ideas that don't violate the Constitution or, as far as I am concerned, they are non-starters. So far, all of your ideas represent infringements on the 2nd Amendment. I cannot support them for that reason, and that's not a "knee-jerk" reaction, that's a position forged from approximately 60 years (I don't count the first decade or so of my life, because at that tender age I didn't have any understanding of the Constitution) of respect for the Constitution, and 50 years of living under the recognition that I took an oath to defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic.
 
Why close it?
Probably because after 8 posts, it's even more unclear exactly what it is you want.

You lost me here 100%...

If you don't want to "win" anything, then what's the point of any discussion?
You don't seem to be open to what people are saying to you and your mind already seems made up that those of us that view any type of "gun control" as "control" and thus "extremists".

In my case, I admit, I'm one of those nutty "extremists".
Nothing anyone can say or do is going to change my mind that "gun control" has nothing to do with "guns" and everything to do with "control"...
 
Shall not be infriged....pretty plain and simple to me. If that makes me an extremist then so are were the founding fathers.
 
We've given up too much already. Not another inch.
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Problem is, we probably don't have that option. While gun sentiment, both positive and negative changed little after the previous numerous mass shootings, this last one involving defenseless children has had a definite impact. Only a year ago the majority of folks in America thought we had enough gun regulations and control, but in the last few weeks that has reversed. Being a country that is supposed to be governed by a majority, we are in trouble. All we can hope for is that this snowball will quit rollin' and intelligent minds will prevail over knee-jerk reactions.
 
Anti-rights "compromises always include the following - "more for us, less for you." There IS no compromise, just "We'll take less than we originally said if you promise to get down and lick our feet."
Want to compromise like they do? We get the GCA of '68 repealed, and they can keep Piers Morgan.

Being a country that is supposed to be governed by a majority
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This is NOT a democracy - we are a representative republic. The majority cannot rule, as that is mob rule. According to theory the majority voice is heard and reflected by elected officials who pass laws within Constitutional guidelines, which can be scrutinized by the judicial branch and retained or tossed on Constitutional grounds.
But one thing we are not is a pure democracy.
 
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My position is improving an already bad situation. My position isn't that more gun control is needed. I don't want to infringe on the second amendment, I want to free up what has already been infringed upon. I would merely like to talk about responsible ways to do it, promoting gun ownership, and promoting gun safety. If all that is presented opposing gun control is the absolute abolishment of any oversight on guns, then reality is being missed. The fact is, gun control advocates are not going to poof out of existence any more than guns would if they had their way. Faced with that reality, what is so offensive about discussing real solutions, rather than this all or nothing attitude?
 
See, this is what I am talking about... I am treated as if I am some extremist wanting *more* gun control, and replies are all about "they can't touch my guns". I seem to recall in my initial post that I said the current isn't working, and I hope I implied that maybe more rational thought should go into it, rather than knee-jerk reactions from either side.
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Is it rational to give a right away that you have given blood, sweat & tears for? I gave my youth to this nation. It was my choice but I did so for what I believe and yet despite what I gave, many others gave so much more including life itself...

People look at things that happen and they blame the guns and I don't think you dispute that, I think you have been pretty clear about that... So the answer to your question is IMHO (no sarcasm intended) in your own position..

The guns simply aren't the problem.. So why are we trying to fix something that isn't the problem? The real problem as I see it is:
  1. You cant legislate away evil... No law will ever stop evil.
  2. You can't diagnose, nor lock up everyone who is mentally ill and may become a danger... - We live in a semi free society and there are no realistic tools to do this.
  3. Lawful gun owners arent the ones doing these things and gun laws effectively punish and take away from those who have only been lawful. Think about it, tons of people have one or more felonies so to be a lawful owner means you have followed the rules.
  4. Many of those interested in disarming you have no intention of passing a law that will disarm themselves, only everyone else..

Lastly as a retired soldier with tons of good and bad experiences, I can tell you guns aren't by any means the biggest threat to you, your family or your community. It is beyond the scope of this forum but a out of control scientist in a home lab could do way more than any gun or all the guns ever created...

The only effective solutions are to be armed lawfully, to get rid of gun free zones and have government encouraged gun use and exposure combined with appropriate safety classes. Treat the mentally ill more effectively (without spying) and understand more people in our nation means more potential dangers.
 
what is so offensive about discussing real solutions, rather than this all or nothing attitude?
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The NRA did propose a solution, and was panned for it. Same solution Clinton offered years ago, and was given a media standing ovation for it.
I'll say it again - I did nothing wrong, and MY property and rights should not be forfeit for someone else's criminal act. Punish the criminal, not the inanimate objects.

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Did I say somewhere that we as gun owners need to be punished for the crimes of others? Did I say that guns should be banned, destroyed, more regulated, or similar?

This is exactly what I'm talking about, why is it so hard to actually discuss the issue, rather than just barfing out what has been said many times before? The fact is, guns are already highly regulated, I am asking to talk about ways to loosen up those restrictions, without sacrificing safety, and so far it doesn't seem like anyone is wanting to do anything but promote near anarchist views, like that's going to make the problem go away by magic.

Are there any ideas here, or is it just all or nothing like I see everywhere else? I'm talking about reality here, not some magical world where gun laws or guns can be removed with a lightswitch. I hope to see talk of HOW change can occur, not just that "gun laws are bad, mkay".
 
The problem is, that even if you are making fair proposals, your posts are coming off as combative, which is going to put the reader on the defensive, and less likely to pay attention to the content of your message.
 
We have to use logic and common sense though.

Firearms are weapons in and of themselves. Cars, spoons, ball bats, etc aren't weapons in and of themselves. Trying to run away from that fact, or making bad analogies isn't useful in my opinion.
 
I never called anyone insane. I referred to the extremisms coming from both sides as insanity. One does not have to be an unreasonable person to do an unreasonable thing.

And as far as me seeming combative, I don't intend to be hostile. I do intend to provoke, but only thought. I we can't open our eyes to reality, and we get stuck in the black -vs- white ONLY idea, then we move nowhere, and it is merely a game of tug-of-war. If we can move beyond that, and discuss reality, and figure out better solutions, then maybe BOTH sides can have their cake and eat it, too.
 
This is NOT a democracy - we are a representative republic. The majority cannot rule, as that is mob rule. According to theory the majority voice is heard and reflected by elected officials who pass laws within Constitutional guidelines, which can be scrutinized by the judicial branch and retained or tossed on Constitutional grounds.
But one thing we are not is a pure democracy.
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I know exactly what form of government we have.:rolleyes: Other than in cases of our presidential elections, as you stated, our officials are elected by the majority of those that vote. The reason we vote them in is because they reflect our ideals and interests. So, basically the sentiments of the majority in this country are reflected by those we elect. While the chest pounding, "from my dead hand" rants will receive cheers and applause from us here on this and other gun forums, one need not be a brain surgeon to see we are in trouble on other fronts. This is called being realistic. If one looks at the general consensus of those here about who should be our President, and who really got elected, it's quite obvious that we do not have total control over all of our interests. I am the last one to want to give up any of my already stifled rights. I am also the last one that wants to argue with a fellow gun enthusiast about our rights or the form of government we have. I am just admitting we have a tough row to hoe. I am not admitting defeat, nor am I giving in. I just stated we have a uphill battle to fight against current gun sentiment in this country. Arguing with fellow gun owners about trivial things is not gonna make it any easier. We need to unite our ranks, not divide them. Apparently your opinion differs.
 
and so far it doesn't seem like anyone is wanting to do anything but promote near anarchist views, like that's going to make the problem go away by magic.
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The founding fathers in there own time had relatively few gun laws and low and behold the world didn't end... It wasn't a giant firefight zone in the 13 colonies in the post revolutionary era.

Even in almost utterly lawless places in Afghanistan every day is not a firefight amongst the locals... And from what I have read of our own history it seems most the gun laws were enacted to keep the drunks from shooting up the place, not from endless blood filled vendettas. Of course there exceptions, but then again they were not by far the norm.

I contend that you could eliminate every single law that controls or regulates guns with the exception of background checks for felons and the like and you would have hardly a blip change in the murder rate or if anything the overall rate would go down. The reasoning is humans are community animals and we need each other to maintain our lifestyles and existence.

If it were legal to give you a M60 machine gun and a ton of ammunition are you going to go shoot up the place where you work and live? No probably not and neither are most other people. BG's you your area would also be very hesitant to attack you or your home or your loved ones.

So my long answer to your question is the laws we currently have create the opportunity and social climate for these mass shootings. If you know were your going is going to be totally unarmed then what's to stop you if your a BG? The social climate of fear about guns feeds into this self perpetuating cycle. Gun laws don't work, parenting, community and recognition of people with serious mental stability can all go along way to addressing the issues we face. To stop treating serious mental illness the same as a cold would be helpful.
 
Wow. I'm pretty surprised at everybody dogpiling on myshoulderissore when he did not suggest anything approaching infringement of the 2nd amendment. I have all the respect in the world for our veterans and for the constitution and believe that an assault weapons ban would be extremely ineffective at curtailing gun violence. That said, what part of requiring background checks for all firearms purchases or transfers violates the 2nd amendment? Or requiring a gun safety class before obtaining a firearm for the first time? Both of those things would allow law abiding citizens to have access to guns and a safety class would hopefully prevent at least some negligent discharges.

The extreme response to the OP by some of the people in this thread is a prime example of our community perpetuating the stereotype of the rabid gun nut that the mainstream media wants to attach to us. I understand it is a passionate subject that we all feel deeply about, but engaging in debate and proposing solutions does not constitute weakness.
 
Oh, relax folks - I know this is a difficult time and folks are being a touch reactive.

I don't think the OP is calling us insane but just using a term (perhaps too strong) to argue that sides are moving into dichotomous positions.

It's called group polarization when folks leave the middle or near the middle and then take polar and immutable positions. Then they yell at each other and if there are any sensible discussions, they are submerged by the rhetoric.

Let me give you an example, when CCW and CHL laws were proposed, some absolutist organizations, esp. one major organization denounced them as not needed because the 2nd Amend. was all that was needed. They attempted to sabotage some good CCW bills and did in at least one state. That there was a CCW law was seen as an evil compromise. Now we know that with 43 shall issue states - that movement was a triumph for gun owerns and probably saved the lives of those who wouldn't illegally carry.

So discuss without personal invective or seizing on words.

Glenn
 
I contend that you could eliminate every single law that controls or regulates guns with the exception of background checks for felons and the like and you would have hardly a blip change in the murder rate or if anything the overall rate would go down. The reasoning is humans are community animals and we need each other to maintain our lifestyles and existence.
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I agree completely, I just want to discuss real possibilities, because just doing away with them, going to zero, is not any sort of possibility for now. Maybe in the future, after steps have been taken towards that goal, but it's no kind of short term goal.

If it were legal to give you a M60 machine gun and a ton of ammunition are you going to go shoot up the place where you work and live? No probably not and neither are most other people. BG's you your area would also be very hesitant to attack you or your home or your loved ones.

So my long answer to your question is the laws we currently have create the opportunity and social climate for these mass shootings. If you know were your going is going to be totally unarmed then what's to stop you if your a BG? The social climate of fear about guns feeds into this self perpetuating cycle. Gun laws don't work, parenting, community and recognition of people with serious mental stability can all go along way to addressing the issues we face. To stop treating serious mental illness the same as a cold would be helpful.
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I agree completely with you, and would add that on the mental health issue, family and friends of anyone would be well served to not turn a blind eye to issues. Mentally unbalanced people do not just seek help, or even recognize that a problem is present.
 
It seems to me that the more restrictions there are, the more gun related crime there are. There was a time when firearms were a common sight and people didn't think anything about it when they would see a gun. Lots of folks took their guns to school with them so they could go hunting after classes. Now a gun is portrayed as evil and people have been trained to believe that. The trouble is not guns. The trouble is we have deteriorated as a society and more gun control can't change that. New gun laws will likely, with the stoke of a pen, turn me into a criminal in the eyes of the government. That completely baffles me since I have been a law abiding citizen my whole life that has worked and paid taxes without ever expecting anyone to give me anything.
 
So are there any views out there other than complete abolishment of all gun laws? Or is that (quite unobtainable) goal the *only* measure acceptable?

I'm asking for real opinions here, ideas that might work, rather than anecdotes for gun ownership or quoting of the 2A. I am pro-gun, there is no need to convert me.
 
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