Is a semiauto rifle a disadvantage in a firefight?

N

Nightcrawler

New member
By firefight I mean a typical military engagement, usually inside one hundred yards.

Say you have two groups of equally well trained soldiers. One group is armed with M16s, the other group armed with identical rifles, except they are safe-semi only, as opposed to the safe-semi-auto the first group has.

So, is the safe-semi only group at a disadvantage in a firefight? How useful is full auto fire in combat? Never having been in combat, I can't really say...
 
With well trained operator.......I prefer full auto cabability. Easy to get double taps on well sighted targets and still can use multi round burst when things are fuzzy. Specially if vegitation makes target acquisition difficult.

Brings up point re M-14/M-1 vs M-16. Smallish trees are cover against the M-16 and they are only conceilment against the 7.62/.30cal.

Sam
 
Never saw the elephant so my comments are strictly by one that was never there and may be worth what you are paying for them.

In spite of the American myth of the aimed shot winning battles most studies have shown that the side that can throw the most shots down range in the direction of the enemy win, ie. victory through firepower.

This is not to say there is no place for sniping or sharpshooting, but these are specialties.

Can't remember the name of the book, but it was by Ezell and about the adoption of the M16. There was a reason that the Germans and Soviets developed the assault rifle.
 
Seems to me the key is "inside one-hundred yards". Assuming relatively equal training/competency, the full-auto crowd would have the edge. They have better odds of forcing the opponents to stay covered or concealed, which allows for some to search for targets while others advance...

I guess.

Art
 
if your in the military and being resupplied with ammunition, full auto is an advantage, if the S*** hits the fan and you're on your own with no more ammo than what your carrying, then semi auto is an advantage, preferably in a caliber that can shoot through trees(M1A, M1 Garand, Fal etc) JMHO
 
If you are carrying the standard load of 210 rounds, I highly suggest that full auto only be used in case you are overun, or suppressive fire for a retreat. Other than that it would be wise to conserve ammo.

The military realized this when they went to the M16 A2 and removed the full auto feature in the weapons in favor of the 3 round burst.

If you are inside 100 meters as you mentioned, there is a 99 percent chance everyone is behind some sort of cover or entrenched in a foxhole. Those aren't are already dead. You are pretty much at a standstill until one side decides upon either a frontal attack or retreat. I would venture to say that secondary weapons would then start to play a major role, such as mortars and 40mm grenade launchers.

To answer the question..yes..full auto can be an advantage provided that you can get ammo. But if 7 mags is all the ammo you have..3 in each pouch and 1 in the weapon..I suggest you not fire till you " see the whites of their eyes" or are forced into action. Either way I would not want to face an SKS operator with 210 rounds at his disposal.

Good Shooting
RED
 
As I see it full auto is of limited utility. It is really only practical for 1. small arms for air defense, 2. CQB/room clearing, 3. area targets at medium/long range. So, while it is an advantage, it is a limited advantage. Remember, the Brits kicked the Argies off the Falklands with the L1A1 a semi auto FAL. The dominant factor was their level of training. Modern armies rely on mass firepower because they are not willing to train their troops properly. The reasons for this are many, and worthy of its own thread that I dont have the time for right now.
 
3-shot burst is an advatage. semi is not bad

full auto = waste

full auto = 2.77 seconds per mag

210 rd. battle load = 19.39 seconds of trigger time in full auto

you could be out of ammo in under 1 minute +- depending on mag change speed.

rate of fire assumed to be 650 rpm
 
I never used the full-auto capability on my G3 during my entire time as a mudfoot, other than a few stupid range stunts. It used to be common practice for us to show recruits how much more accurate you can be with rapid single-shot fire. Then again, full auto never made sense with a 7.62x51 battle rifle that holds only twenty rounds, which is why the Brits eliminated that feature from their FALs. I never felt less capable using only semi-auto fire. There are not too many uses for full-auto fire out of infantry rifles anyway...it wastes huge amounts of ammunition and yields a far less favorable hit percentage than rapid, aimed semi-auto fire. The M16A2 has the full-auto capability removed for a reason, even though .223 is inherently more controllable than .308 in full rock-n-roll.
 
I believe the full auto capability should be an option for 5.56 Nato rifles. Training really counts but in an extend war you have a lot of replacements and training become OJT.

Take getting ambushed and your ememy is 30 yards from you you have to gain fire superiority to make them break contact or once gained you then have to out flank them to break up the bushwack.

From my experience once the firefight started everyone would be on full auto and the squad leaders would at some point direct everyone to go to semi.

Concerning basic loads. In 1968-69 I really don't know what the standard (official) load was. In my unit we were required to carry 22, 20 round mags. (loaded to 18 rounds). Squad leaders would carry an additional bandoler 140 rounds as spare ammo. The most rounds I ever put through my 16 in one firefight was 13-14 mags. Once the firefight was over I still had 8 mags. left plus the bandoler.

At the time our 2 squad unit was ambushed the companies dug in position was hit. My was unit was approx. a click from the company. Our resupply to the company postion of ammo came by slick with loaded mags. in a foot locker. I quess they thought it would save time except when the slick got there the fight was over.

From a dug in position (NDP) you would most often use the semi mode if being hit by a ground assult.

Also in an extend war I would venture to bet the basic load would be increased either by the command or by the individual soldier.

Would I feel naked without a full auto weapon? Probably not but it is always nice to have this option.

Turk
173rd Abn. Bdge (sep)
RVN 68-69
 
Typical infantry tactics is fire and maneuver where somebody puts suppressive fire on their @ss while others maneuver up to put the coupe de grace on them. So full auto is good.:p
 
Bad Karma

I don't intend to debate the theory behind the three round burst but there are some serious problems with the burst mechanism in the M16A2. In terms of mechanical engineering it is good, you probably wont break it unless you try, and people will try. In terms of human engineering it falls short. The problem is that there is a hook on the front of the secondary sear that engages a spring loaded ratchet on the base of the hammer. This controles the number of rounds fired in the burst, unfortunately that little ratcheting pawl is always engaged and this causes the trigger pull to change with every shot. Another issue is that it resets every three rounds so when you flip that selector lever to burst you might get one, two or three rounds out of your three round burst. Personally, and this is just my personal decision, I would rather carry a semi auto only than the A2 equipped with burst, even in a short range engagment. Even better would be the full auto version, but only is you can train to use it properly.

I find myself in an awkward and uncomfortable situation, I am in agreement with George Hill. That disturbs me.
 
I shot AK both ways, semi and full-auto.
To be brief, full-auto is cool at 10-25 yards, but beyond that - sorry guys, it's mostly waste of ammo, although plenty of noise...
Anyway, it's good to have full-auto capability in battle rifle, just in case, but I cann't see how anybody can hope to to deliver aimed fire in full-auto (unless we are talking true machine gun).
 
That's true, Oris. I used to rapid-fire my semiauto AK. I could get four, sometimes even five rounds a second. Sure as hell coulnt' hit anything, though. You didn't have time to reacquire your sight picture before the next recoil impulse hit...
 
I found M16, AK47 and various submachine guns (Thompson, Sten, M3, PPSh, full-size Ingram) to be very controllable. For ranges under 15m I'd pick full auto every time over semi only: all the ammo in the world won't help unless I can dump enough fire on a target which may be obscured by interior walls or simply moving very fast trying to stay behind cover. Moreover, with glimpses of the target would be brief enough that bursts would be mostly limited to two-three rounds.

Would I take a submachine gun over a semi 223 -- probably not because 223 has better penetration of thick skin. But an auto 223 or a semi -- auto wins every time. Just keep selector on semi except when in close quarters.
 
Oleg - I said just what I was going to.
Gunfights can get close and personal. And when its close - full auto can make the difference.
 
"Get a real rifle."

Just kidding, just kidding, George. I know you like real calibers, anyway. I tend to favor slightly lighter calibers, just because I have this fantasy of extra holes in adversaries-ie, MORE adversaries- over combat load with "main battle rifle".
 
You know damn well that in most of the situations where the mythical SHTF, we're in trouble because A) full auto fire is vastly superior in room clearing, which is most effective against civilian resistance. B) machineguns on the field are supremely effective long range suppression tools. C) Door gunners from helicopters as well as the people shooting back at them both benefit immensely from full auto fire.
 
I think a lot has to do with circumstances. How much ammo do you have? How trained are you in Full Auto shooting? How trained are you in semi-auto shooting? Are you aiming or spraying and praying? Personally, Unless I was trying to cut down a line of people, I think i'd rather shoot semi.
 
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