Is a .45acp enough?

In defending oneself, you have two weapons. (In order of importance) 1) Your head; 2) whatever the grey matter contained therein tells you would be a good idea to arm yourself with. The .45 ACP is really only in it's element when defending against thin skinned critters like humans, north american cats, etc. The .44 Magnum on the other hand really comes into it's own against big wildlife in non-rifle situations; as if you were to use it against the two legged criters, the only difference between it and the .45 ACP would be that one would be digging great big holes in the ladscape behind your attacker. When you are as completely out sized, out muscled, and basically out classed as you would be if going up against any sort of bear, you want to make damned sure that you have him outgunned. You also want to make damned sure that your gun is going to go bang when you tell it to. This is even more important in wildlife defense than in human defense. Say you're up against a big grizz. You have ten rounds. you hit him four times. Then your gun jams. You know what wounded animals do to defenseless former attackers?

Anyhow, what you really need against bear is a handheld howitzer, preferably wheelgun, definitely DA. (sorry to Desert Eagle fans)
Something that throws a big heavy bullet as hard as possible. The great big magnums are perfectly suited, although i'd question the 357.

My $.02,

Mineralman
 
.357 Pack Gun you say? Ruger SP101 Spurless with Hogue rubber grips is my back country/pack gun. I carry it with hot 125 Grain JHP's, the perfect load for that gun. I don't live in Grizzly country, mind you, but feel completely secure hiking in the White Mountains of New Hampshire with it. No telling what (or who?) I might run into on the trail. Accurate, reliable, and versatile. I love that gun! MHO.
Best Regards,
SM
 
kawKLR: I think the 10mm should perform well, if you use heavy bullets loaded to 41mag velocities. My delta elite's ridden my hip before, and I've not felt under gunned. I still prefer my 629, though.

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"To die as a warrior means to have crossed swords and either won or lost without any consideration for winning or loosing. There is just not enough time and generally not enough strength in the resolve of any man to do otherwise"-Miyamoto Musashi
 
Thanks to all, some good advise in here.
I have been reading the posts for about six months I guess, this was my first post !!
Such a great reply I'll do it again sometime.
Regards
Hayden :)
 
10mm is no 41 magnum! Maximum load for a 10mm is 200gr bullets @ 1150 FPS. If it is a 10mm wheel gun, those numbers can be pushed to about 1300 FPS. The pressure required to drive a 10mm at the higher velocity would KBM a auto pistol. S&W N frames are rated at 40,000 PSI. A 41 Magnum can drive that same 200gr bullet at 1500 FPS, without a +P charge. The 41 Magnum can hurl a 265gr bullet at 1300 FPS. A 10mm load is similar to a fully charged 357 Magnum (if you do not +P the 10mm, it is actually a bit less). The 400 CorBon and 45 Super follow about the same ballistics as the 10mm. None of these three cartridges can surpass the 600's pound feet of energy from the barrel. The 41 Magnum, 44 Magnum and 45 Colt each have load capabilities of over 1000 pound feet of energy, using a 250gr, plus, size load. There is a big gap between these two class of cartridges.

Robert
 
i read a story in one of the handgun rags some time ago about a guy that hunted problems bears for the government, when such stuff was still politically correct. he hunted with dogs and his primary weapon was a Ruger Blackhawk in .45 Colt. most of the bears were blackies but there were some cougars and grizzers in the mix also. he handloaded his rounds and he said in 25 years he had never felt under gunned. it is always the nut on the end of the handle that matters most. i would rather have a 250 grain SWC or a 230 FMJ at 800 FPS that was aimmed well than a magnum rifle you can't hit with.

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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
Let he that hath no sword sell his garment and buy one.--And they said. Lord here are two swords. And he said unto them. That is not enough. Luke 22-36,38
 
Thanks for the feedback. I was curious why there was no mention of the 10mm. Soooo, basically, if one plans to go wandering in bear territory, even black bear territory, one best have a cannon, 44mag 41mag or 454 casull. Looks like I might end up owning two handguns, one for normal carry around town and one for deep woods wandering. Thanks again folks, this was my first posting to this message board.
 
KawKLR, BTW, I own a .454 Casull, and while it's a great cartridge for large game, I hesitated to suggest it because of the weight while you're hiking. Believe me, unless you're hunting, hiking in the woods with a big, big, gun on you is a pain in the arse. Here's where I'm coming from. I'm an avid hunter, and a backpacker as well. I carry when I'm backpacking, but it's a much smaller, lighter gun then my Casull. Why? When you're hunting, a giant handgun or a rifle is standard, and no problems. However, when it's not hunting season, and you're sometimes around a lot of granola types that can't see the world past the brim of their gore-tex lined sombrero, a little discretion is advised (just like concealed carry)...also, some parks and National Forests don't allow firearms, so if you're going to carry, the smaller, the better; in size, anyway. Also, weight is a factor. Typically, my backpacking trips have about 10-15 miles a day in rough country. These miles are made harder by every ounce on you. These are the reasons I've strongly urged you into loking at very powerful but small (and light) guns. You don't have to agree with me on manufacturer choice, but if you want to enjoy your hiking, you'll choose a gun that doesn't pull you down.
 
Hayden, I seem to be just one short step ahead of you. I did the research, asked the questions, handled the two guns that I narrowed it down too, and my decision was to go with the Ruger Redhawk in .44 mag w/a 5 1/2" barrel, loaded with Garrett's 330 gr. hard cast bullets. My second choice was the S&W 629 Mountain gun, .44 mag, w/a 4 1/2" barrel. Both guns felt really nice, the S&W had a better trigger and was a little lighter gun, but I decided to go with the Redhawk. The main reason being the Redhawk is a stronger built gun, and with its longer cylinders I can load it with Garrett's heaviest .44 load. The heavy trigger I can get worked on, the extra weight wasn't much of a problem (my mule will be packing it around til we arrive in camp) at which time it will then go on my side. I think both guns, for the purpose your looking for, should fit the bill nicely. All I have left to do is buy mine. You might want to peruse Randy Garrett's website, alot of good testimonials, info on his .44 mag loads, and some real interesting reading - I might add it was a big factor in deciding what caliber I went with. One thing I wanted to add about the comments on mountain lions not being hard to kill because of being thin skinned. I know of a big tom, that had been treed with a pack of hounds, that was shot with a .44 mag. It was completely blown out of the tree, fell 20' to the ground and had enough life in it before it died, to gut a good hound and kill it with a bite to the neck. Don't let anybody kid ya, those big cats sometimes take a lot of killing. I know several cat hunters that prefer to shoot them with a .22 in the chest through both lungs, that way it doesn't knock em out of the tree and endanger the dogs. They'll usually stay up in the tree, drown in their own blood and when they fall out they're dead. Now don't take that as a recommendation to carry a .22 calibur, it was added to show that big cats can take a hit from a .44 mag, and still have alot of fight left in them.

[This message has been edited by slymule (edited February 07, 2000).]
 
I'm not sure where I saw this but it might have been on one of those Fox "When Animals go Bad" or something like that.

The video and storyline showed a ranger standing on top of a grizzly cage in the back of a truck. He lifted the cage door up(he is standing on top mind you) to let the bear run out into the woods. Problem was the bear stopped, stood up and started rocking the cage in an effort to knock the ranger(maybe he was Fish and Game officer now that I think of it). Well it knocked him off allright and started to maul him! He drew his .357 Magnum and emptied into the grizzly. I have no idea where he hit it as I'm doing this from a distant memory. I do remember him stating that the .357 Mag saved his life that day though so I guess it will do the job.(At least in his case)
 
Does your S&W have a fully supported barrel? If so, you can go w/ hot 165gr .45 Super and increase the recoil spring weight. Practice to make sure its reliable. If available, I'd also consider getting a second barrel kit chambered for 460 Roland. It equals top end .44 mag. power. Other than that, try a short, lightweight carbine in the highest caliber you feel comfortable with. Check all hunting laws, etc. first or the guvt might be the only bear with which you'll have trouble.

I agree whole heartedly w/Robert the .41 Mag. Cats are quick and naughty animals. ie. Can you keep a house cat off of the table if you're not in the room?...See my point. If a big kitty tries to eat you, there won't be any time to rummage through the pack. I've fed big cougar kitties raw turkey legs by hand. I believe my arm would have been crushed just as easy. Forget what I said about carbine, if you won't meet bear and will come across anti'gun city folks. A big hiking stick would be more useful than any caliber gun that isn't immediately available. Hence pack it in holster. Best yet, both of you carry a side arm if you can aford it now. I've been camping a bit too. I've come close to big kitties, but never had problem w/them. Doesn't mean it can't/won't happen. One thing you can be sure of. If you hike very often its the 2 legged beast that will do you the most harm.

Reread what Robert the .41 Mag said. He's been through it and considered this question as much as anyone I suspect.

robert the equalizer

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"But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." -Jesus Christ (Luke 22:36, see John 3:15-18)
 
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