Is a .45acp enough?

H

Hayden

New member
My wife and I do alot of hiking, my question is whether or not a S&W 4516 is enough protection against attack from animals larger than the human species :)
I always carry it hiking and use 185gn JHP's and 230gn JHP's from corbon.
Do I really need that .44magnum or if the need arises will the .45acp take care of us?
 
You'll probably get several opinions on this one. If you live in brown bear or grizzly bear country the .45 is a bit light. Not enough gun. However, I carried a .45 loaded with hard cast 230 grainers in grizzly country before I bought a S&W Trail Boss.

Now if you are wondering about an average size black bear stalking you for supper, I would think your .45 loaded with some tough 230's would get the job done. Yogi ain't nearly as tough as gentle Ben.

I imagine Randy Garrett and Keith Rogan will show up with a reply and both of them are very knowledgeable on this topic. It will be interesting to see what they say about black bears and maybe mountain lions.
 
If you live along the northern rim states or the western states, the answer is "NO!". Here in the west, it is not just bear you have to contend with, it is also cougars. Forty-five acp is not enough to stop a hungry cougar. Minimum protection from critters with claws and teeth is a 41 Magnum. You need a gun that can send a 250 grain bullet at more than 1200 fps or better. Anything less, you are just fooling with yourself.

Robert

[This message has been edited by Robert the41MagFan (edited February 06, 2000).]
 
When my wife and I camped routinely in the backcountry of NM and AZ, we traveled with nothing less then 2 40S&W's early on and later 2 10mm's pistols.

Our attitudes were best summed up with grizly training when I was preparing to explore the North Slope of Alaska. The rough quote from the FWB was "you either need to shoot the bear often enought to kill it, or at least pXXX it off so much that it will kill you instead of just a giving you a good mauling for a lingering death"

I think a 45 would get you into that good mauling zone and not into the first zone.
 
.45 would be fine to fend off a peeved whitetail that's trying to stomp you into the dirt or to shoot an angry dog or badger that wants to bie your leg off, even against a cougar that has you on your back and is going for your neck you could draw the .45 and empty it into his belly. For animals any tougher you'd be better off with something more powerful.
 
If your life depends on it get a .357 magnum wheel gun with 185 JHPS. .45's are not dependable 1 shot stoppers. (compare a little leauger throwing a fastball with a bowling ball (.45) to Mr. Ryan with one of his best (.357 Magnum)and you see how you'd like to get hit by either. Panic jam with 1000 pounds o' bar on ya won't impress him much either.
 
45 acp uses the right size bullets but they may be a bit underpowered. i will take some flack here but the properly loaded .45 Colt will our perform any .41 or .44 magnum. LARGE predatory animals often require deep penetration to reach vital organs. a hardcast 250 to 300 grain SWC (ala KEITH) would fit the bill quite nicely. i once read where the owner of Magnaport and a friend where in a cabin in costal Alaska. the camp had been losing meat form thier locker to a brown bear that kept ripping the doors off. so he and his friend slpet with thier guns. he chose a .44 Magnum loaded with 230 grain hollow points. and his friend had a .338 Magnum rifle. in the wee hours of the morning the new meat locker doors held off the assualt of a hungry brownie. so he came sniffing around the cabins to find dinner. long story short, he ripped the doors off of Larry Kelly's cabin and tried to enter. the door was built small for that reason and he got partially stuck in the door. Larry later said the scene was hellish. a half ton of bear half in thier cabin popping his teeth and roaring. he aimmed his .44 Mag Magnaport Stalker Special ant the bear's chest and fired six times point blank range. his friend short stroked his rifle in the malay and it jammed tight. the bear had had enough and managed to extracate himself from the door and run off!. the next night a proffesional hunter killed the bear with a .416 Weatherby 10 yards from camp. when he was skinned the six .44 Mag bullets were found embedded in the chest of the bear. needless to say Larry shelved the plan to kill a brownie with the .44 until he got his hands on some 300 grain hard cast SWC's loaded to maximum. later during the trip he killed a trophy coastal brown bear at 50 yards with the same gun using the 300 grain solid hard cast bullet. he reported that it penetrated well but he wished it had been a .45.
 
I have killed a 1000 lb plus Bull with a .45acp 230 gr hard ball round.
We had been trying to catch it for several days and it was loose in a Yuppie subdivision. Everytime we would get close with our Police cars the Bull would run back into the woods. One day the owner had it cornered where it couldn't get back to the woods and he told me to shoot it because if it got out into traffic on the nearby very busy highway, he would be liable for the damages. I shot the Bull once in the head and it dropped in its tracks. They called a wrecker and loaded it on a trailer and donated it to the Sheriffs Boys Ranch. That .45acp worked just fine that day and I have shot numerous dogs, coyotes and other critters in the line of duty and it has never failed to stop. Like anything else its bullet placement that counts and .45acp hardball is known to penetrate deeply, and thats what you need deep penetration to reach the vitals.

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SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL POLICE, KEEP THEM INDEPENDENT.
 
my woods gun is a .45 Colt Blackhawk loaded with 250 grain hard cast Keith style SWC's with a muzzle velocity of over 1250 FPS. Maybe not the mojo needed for a Grizzer or a BIG brownie but i live in central N.C. and we don't get many of thoose here. however i would not hesitate to use that gun on anything on that was after me. P.S. i don't know off a single incident of where someone has succesfully used a handgun to defend an attack from a detiremined Grizzer or Brownie. if you guys do let me hear it. Mountain lions on the other hand have always been thought of as thin skinned predators. i have read stories of them being taken with a variety of handguns including cap and ball revolvers.


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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
Let he that hath no sword sell his garment and buy one.--And they said. Lord here are two swords. And he said unto them. That is not enough. Luke 22-36,38
 
Hello; In grizzly country I would prefer to
have one of three choice's, in the defensive
handgun caliber's:

1).45 Colt, 2).44 Magnum, or 3).41 Magnum

I don't condone or own Taurus firearms; but
in this case, the .454 Casull might be in
order? Maybe one day, I can visit my friend's
Robert (the .41MagFan) in Oregon; or Keith
(CheeseMan) in Wisconscin and hunt these
critter's? We don't have any bear's larger
than the honey types here in The Heart Of
Old Dixie!!! :(

Regards,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

Message edited by Dan H. Ford on 02-06-00
 
I agree with the above, and regard the .45ACP in any loading as marginal on "typical" small(er) black bears and mountain lions.

If the .45 is what you have, I suggest working on proficiency in rapid-fire, multiple hits. Trying to get four or five hits on a Pepper-popper before it falls, for instance. (Three is easy.)

Get totally away from the concept of "Shoot once, and look and see what happened." Get into "Hit five times, check; hit four more times." (You DO use stainless 8-round mags, don't you?)

FWIW, Art
 
I have hiked am camped in many states, in bear and lion country. and to be honest I have always had more fear of human preditors. Usually if you use your head you can avoid trouble with wild life. I really dont think a hand gun is the right tool for a grizzly or lion.I think we need to use our head not our guns, but if I were under a bear attack I certainly would want a rifle in heavy caliber and a good distance between him and me.
 
Thanks for all the valuable info.
We hike the Southern Sierra's in Cal, so I guess grizzlies are not a problem!!
I know the chances are very remote that anything would ever happen to us but hell it was hard enough to find my lovely young lady I wouldnt want anything to happen to her.
Been that I am real interested in buying my first wheel gun one poster mentioned a .357.
Whats a good brand ? Cost used? ammo costs?
Thanks for the info and one other thing with the .45acp what would you guys load it with the JHP's or solids? It feeds both without ever jaming well ok twice in 1500-2000 rounds it is S&W after all :)
 
Just upgrade your .45 to .45 Super. That will send a 230gr hardball at a high enough velocity to get into anything except a big grizz,and you can still shoot 45acp whenever you want....and less felt recoil than a big magnum.....or just go whole hog and get that 454 Casull Ruger.......
 
Cougars are not difficult to kill. They are thin-skinned. They're not like their African cousins.

Since Griz's are not going to be a problem, you'll probably be o.k. with a .45. I just got a Grams +5 extension for my G21. That's 19 rounds of .45's. I might not kill whatever I was shooting at, but I'd damn sure have a lot of opportunity to get it's attention.

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Shoot to kill; they'll stop when they're dead!
 
Ron1 : I agree with you in that most encounters can be avoided if a person just uses their head. However, in my home state, where effective hunting of black bear and cougar has been banned, their fear of man has dwindled to almost nothing. Add to the fact that, in the area I used to live in, the brush was so thick that you couldnt really see if a cat or bear was 5' from you. In those situations you dont have the luxury of distance and the rifle will most likely end up 10ft away from you on the ground after the critter pounces on you. As a matter of fact, if you dont have the handgun IN YOUR HAND, chances are you'll get hurt if attacked. Possibly much worse. Thats why I always carry my 629 classic, whether i'm hunting with a long gun or just hiking of scouting. If I end up flat on my back with a beast on top trying to eat me, maybe, MAYBE, I'll be able to draw and fire before he finishes me. I really dont think theres such a thing as "overkill" in this scenario. Dead is dead. The mt lion shot with a 45acp would most likely be just as dead as if he were shot with a 44mag, and I doubt he'd care 1 way or the other. Bear on the other hand.......well, I love the 45acp, but given a choice, I'd take my 44mag over it against a bear any day of the week.

HAYDEN: If you'll be in bear country, I'd strongly sugest a 44mag or 45lc. If its mainly cougar you're worried about, then pick up a good S&W 686 and load it with 180gr SWC's. That should do the trick and the recoil isnt as bad as the 44. If you'll be encountering bear, though, I'd go with the 44mag. JMHO. :)

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"To die as a warrior means to have crossed swords and either won or lost without any consideration for winning or loosing. There is just not enough time and generally not enough strength in the resolve of any man to do otherwise"-Miyamoto Musashi
 
Hayden, if you hiking in So.Cal. you should not worry about the critters with 4 legs, it's the critters walking on 2 legs that need watching. Your 4516 should provide the protection you need. However, if you are just looking to buy a new hand gun, a .357 mag is a fine choice. I carry a 3" barreled S&W Model 66 when prospecting for gold in So.Cal. The 3" barrel is hard to find on a 66 but the balance and performance make it worth looking for.
Good luck dk
 
Hayen

A little story about 357 Magnums and cougars. This past deer season, I was hunting one evening and was attacked by a cougar. One, it happened so fast that if I did not have the gun already in my hand, he would have landed on me for sure. Two, that cat ate JHP's like nothing I had ever seen, before he got really discouraged by the last shot. The cougar ran off under full power and never missed a stride. All I could find were splashes of blood in the locations that it got hit. The moral of the story is 357 Magnums are not very efficient protection from critters with claws and teeth. And again, these events happen so fast it is most likely that the critter will land on you. Choose a firearm that can be fired with one hand, so the other may be used to push and punch. Keeping the critters mouth from face. No single action guns!

Robert
 
This did not happen to me, but I was told the story and I have seen the skin.
First this man is one tough bird that is a gunsmith and makes knives that will hold an edge that is unreal. He is a big man and teaches LEOs hand to hand combat.
He was hunting in Colorado a number of years ago. Someone shot at a black bear and the bear ran straight into the gentleman while in a bad mood. The gentleman ended up toe to toe with the bear and the two of them hugging each other. He wrapped his left arm around the bear and tucked his head under its chin. He had a .44 mag that he emptied into the bears chest, he dropped the pistol and pulled his custom made knife and started gutting the bear. When it was all over the bear fell over backwards and he was still standing. The witnesses (he was hunting with 3 other men)to this incident rushed over to him to render first aid because he was covered in blood. After careful examination it was found the the back of his coat was shredded, but he was unhurt except for some minor scratches.
Hard to believe? Oh yes, but while he told me the story I sat and stared at the bear skin hanging on his wall. The biggest problem turned out to be the local rangers, he did not have a tag to hunt bear and the local ranger did not believe his story, even with several witnesses standing there. Fortunatly for him the guys boss showed up and knew the gentleman in question. The chest cavity of the bear was opened and proved his story with the powder burns. They issued him a bear tag and sent him on his way.
 
It seems like a .357 would be enough for mountain lion, but I'd hate to be wrong. In your best "model runway" voice: "This summer, the Taurus Total Titanium loaded with very hot .45 Colts (shot little, carried much) are the vogue for dapper hikers here in Colorado, combining light weight with serious knock-down power." The Col. says, "Use enough gun."
 
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