Is a .22 worth it if it's all I can get?

Oy, talk about a long read :).

Okay, camparing a .308 to a 22LR. This strikes me as comparing pocket knife and a machete in terms of chopping ability. Just because in your personal experiance the machete has it doesn't mean the pocket knife will, even though the are both knives.

On the liver, here are a few quotes from an FBI publication(http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm) on wounding effectiveness.

"Further, the temporary cavity is caused by the tissue being stretched away from the
permanent cavity, not being destroyed. By definition, a cavity is a space18 in which
nothing exists. A temporary cavity is only a temporary space caused by tissue being
pushed aside. That same space then disappears when the tissue returns to its original
configuration."

""In the case of low-velocity missiles, e.g., pistol bullets, the bullet produces a
direct path of destruction with very little lateral extension within the
surrounding tissues. Only a small temporary cavity is produced. To cause
significant injuries to a structure, a pistol bullet must strike that structure
directly. The amount of kinetic energy lost in tissue by a pistol bullet is
insufficient to cause remote injuries produced by a high velocity rifle bullet."20

The reason is that most tissue in the human target is elastic in nature. Muscle, blood
vessels, lung, bowels, all are capable of substantial stretching with minimal damage.
Studies have shown that the outward velocity of the tissues in which the temporary cavity
forms is no more than one tenth of the velocity of the projectile.21 This is well within the
elasticity limits of tissue such as muscle, blood vessels, and lungs, Only inelastic tissue
like liver, or the extremely fragile tissues of the brain, would show significant damage
due to temporary cavitation.22"

Fragmentation/Penetration.

I don't recall doubting the goat tests. Sure, when you shoot a goat it will die, but then again living things aren't all the same. Just because they have the same color hair, and smell the same doesn't mean that the all die the same. Its like telling someone to the exact second how long it takes a cat to die after being run over by a car with X tires and a car with Y tires.

And I personally don't see whats the big fuss about "The bullet that fragments will increase your chances of hiting vitals!" Well what if your bullet strikes a bone? That isn't going to help penetration any. Nor if you have to shoot through an arm, nor if initially put the bullet exactly where it needs to be and it flys off all around it. I also doubt 6 inches is more than enough to reach the heart. I'm an average teenage guy, who is about 9 inches thick(I measured myself, what to you mean I have too much time on my hands? :)). For me, 6 inches would be enough if you shot me from the front/back and maybe the side. But then again not everyone is thin like me. I personally never saw the brillance of preparing yourself for the Best case scenario when anything less than that might not be enough.

Sincerely,
Adam

------------------
Self improvement is a hobby of mine :)
 
Swatman;

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Dave[/quote]

Schmit… please. But if you must use proper names use David. I very much resemble that very famious manly statue! :D

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> that you felt I was flaming you.[/quote]

No.. not for a moment did I fell that way. And I hope you didn’t feel that I; you. I was just trying to make some points on some comments you made that is all.

As for Mr. Sanow’s comment well either he was misquoted or he must have been on some good medication. He has got to know better. As for Firearms tactical Institute's test's, yes they do show them to have the least amount of penetration of .22s. However, IF I have to rely on a .22 for self defense (allllll my other arms are unavailable?!?!?) than they will be loaded with QS… my choice.

On an other side – Want to know what a 12 gauge QS slug does to a block of bellestic Gel? ;)


------------------
Schmit, GySgt, USMC(Ret)
NRA Life, Lodge 1201-UOSSS
"Si vis Pacem Para Bellum"
 
Adam;

No Swatman said the goat test was a joke. And to an extent he is right. But they were a good test never the less IMO.

I was using rifle bullets cause they have a greater shock effect to show that hydrostatic effect is something to think about. As I said to Swatman... I'm not ready to discount their effect in handgun bullets, there are good arguments on both sides.

RE: Penetration. What if? ;) Yes, you need penetration. What is enough? But penetration is not all you need. You also need the largest permanent wound cavity achievable, which is why we have hollow points. You also need to hit something vital. I think the fragmentation of QS is a step in trying to achieve more tissue distrution and hit a vital organ with a handgun bullet (I can't wait till Triton come out with QS Rifle bullets). And I'm willing to bet my life with it which is why it resides in the mag of my carry weapon.

And there was no fuss... only a good debate IMO.

------------------
Schmit, GySgt, USMC(Ret)
NRA Life, Lodge 1201-UOSSS
"Si vis Pacem Para Bellum"
 
Clead,

What you have just seen is called a tangent. This sometimes happens in topics.

Welcome to The Firing Line



------------------
Schmit, GySgt, USMC(Ret)
NRA Life, Lodge 1201-UOSSS
"Si vis Pacem Para Bellum"
 
Dave: Your right, penitration isn't all I need, shot placement helps also. People have been useing guns effectivly for a few hundred years without just those two elements. They never gave up because they didn't have cast bullets that broke into 3 peices when they reached target.

Not to say that a larger wound channel doesn't help, in fact, IMO the larger the better as long as it has enough penetration. I also doubt that 3 smaller wound channels(Assuming that they all actually strike something important, which they might not, leaving you with a less effective bullet) would do the same damage as one larger wound cavity . Especially when that one does so for a longer time.

What is "enough"? Well, even though geletin doesn't tell you exactly how much BG a bullet will penetrate, I usually go with 12 inch bare minimum, and over 18 as getting into overkill territory. But then again thats my opinion on what is good, and I'm sure we've all heard the quote about opinions and peoples butts... :)

Sincerely,
Adam




------------------
Self improvement is a hobby of mine :)
 
among the reasons to go ahead and get the 22:

1. satisfies rule one of gunfights (i.e., bring a gun)

2. cheapest practice ammo on earth

3. allows you to learn to shoot accurately without developing any flinch from recoil

4. because of the near zero recoil and the enormous amount of practice you will be able to afford, you can REALISTICALLY expect to shoot people's eyes out at 20 feet, the distance within which most gun fights take place (so "they" say)

5. shooting em in the eyes is a MAJOR stopping technique, as in MONDO MAJOR.

6. THE 22 IS THE MAFIA'S ASSASSINATION TOOL OF CHOICE, LOOK AT ANY MOVIE SCRIPT. THESE FOLKS KNOW ABOUT KILLING. APPARENTLY, SO THE ARGUMENT GOES, THE VERY SMALL VELOCITY OF THE 22LR MEANS THE SUCKER RICOCHETS AROUND IN THE BRAIN (AFTER ENTERING JUST BEHIND THE EAR) AND METHODICALLY SHREDS EVERYTHING. THOSE DUMB 45'S JUST KNOCK A BIG HOLE AND HEAD OFF INTO SPACE(OK, THE HOLE IS REAL BIG, AS IN "YOU DO NOT WANT TO TRY THIS AT HOME"). ANYWAY, THE GODFATHER KNEW SOMETHING ABOUT WEAPONS. TRUST HIM.

GO GET THAT GUN!!!!!
 
Blah, blah.....yackity,yack !!

If you guys can talk so well, why do you need a gun at all?? :)
The "hydrostatic shock" of a .22 aint enough to knock a stray 5 pound cat off of my fence at 2AM. Sure, the SOB yowled for a while, haven't seen him since. Out of an 18.5" bbl, at 20 yards, a "perfect" lung hit on a 25-30 pound cayote (with a HP that DID expand) sent the yipper on a run. Caught up with him 1/2 mile away, an hour later. Chased him over a mile before the neighbors dogs took over for me. Sure, he'd have died on his own...maybe in a day or two.

We're talking SELF DEFENSE here. The object is NOT to KILL someone, minutes, hours, or DAYS later!! The goal is to STOP the attack! Relying on a "mouse" gun, yer gonna need all the penetration you can get, and then some. HPs are OUT! Depending on the weather and your attacker's attire, yer gonna lose as much as half (or more) of the energy/velocity BEFORE penetration becomes a factor. With a large caliber handgun, you need a good hit IN the brainbox to guarantee a one shot stop, anything outside the box is just gonna sell tylenol. Reduced to depending on a snub .22, your only hope is an eye shot, and you better not have high hopes! (If the guy sees your gun, and STILL needs to be stopped, he is a DEDICATED OPPONENT, and a hole in his army jacket followed by a flesh wound is GONNA PISS HIM OFF! If you MUST rely on a .22 for self defense, get the longest bbl and highest capacity that you can find, and practice rapid fire almost as much as you practice RUNNING LIKE HELL!!

------------------
The Bible is my lawbook. I turn the other cheek when applicable, and spend the rest of my days resisting evil at every front, until I have breathed my last breath.
 
Clead, .22 has many good stories and they are lethal as the other caliber in self defense.

Many said, once it enter the body, it would be hard for the doctor to locate it as it continuously penetrate soft tissues while still in the inertia state.

In PI there are many stories where .22 caused death to many. It cannot knock out a person but it will caused death too.

There are many documented stories about .22 where it was drawn by gun totters against a .45 - and in some cases the .22 works well. It is not the caliber sometimes but it is up to the user. Like Jim Keenan said, he saw one that can shoot a bottle neck and if that will be done to .22 users then it is at par to the rest of caliber.

I one time had .22 comanche and a magnum. The .22LR where I tried to shoot a big banana tree can penetrate it. A friend of mine who has a .22 STAR can penetrate both walls of a drum/barrel full of water. Thus it has also good energy.

Vega: How in the world did I become a senior member when I couldn"t finish a six-pack in one sitting? Well, the administrator has a standard in giving the title, and be glad to have it. Quality and not quantity sometimes counts.

Thanks,
 
Goodness this thread got testy. :-)
First of all there is NO evidence of how effective a .22 is in self defense. We do know it kills more than all others combined, so it is popular. One reason is the popularity of it and those cheap .22's sure point nice regardless of price and they are used at CLOSE range and thus placement is better than most with other larger guns. At least it seems that way.
Stop at look at Pres. Reagan shooting. ONE shot knocked a secret service agent on his BUTT RIGHT NOW, he never touched his gun.
The DC cop went straight down, never touched his gun. Brady went on his face and didn't move. Reagan almost died. All ONE shot form a untrained guy. Not bad in my book. Anyone want to complain of the performance of the .22? I think not. and all ONE shot. Evan Marshal I'm sure didn't include this one in his book.
With 40 years on the street and taking a .22 to the right knee I assure you it is not a wimp. Ideal? of course not. But it's record isn't as bad as one thinks and if that is the most logical choice, then get good amunnition, practice and worry not. Like someone said, Just seeing it can end a problem. I noticed nobody offered to take a .22 slug to prove the point. NO gun is a bad choice, some just much better. Gotta do what we gotta do.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top