Is .380 ACP Really Such A Dead Duck ?

M

Mike H

New member
My search for new handguns goes on unabated, the flames of that particular fire now having been fanned by the potential inclusion of my lady wife in the search. A kind of competition mentality appears to have crept into our mutual browsing by means unknown, and we are now in the market for 2 identical pistols. It seems likely that 2 Bersa Thunder Lites are about to enter our possession in .380 ACP, and these will either be shot to extinction, or, traded in almost immediately if wifey doesn't take to handgunning. Why Thunders ?, well they're cheap, .380 will do the trick for her, what's the point in buying a Sig Sauer and then see it not being used as nature intended, and as mentioned previously we need 2 of the things.

I'm happy about the Bersas, they seem like great value and I only read good things about them. Question is, what about .380ACP, I personally have never shot it and I've heard that it is one of those poor accuracy calibers (like .40 S&W dare I say it), power seems comparable to a .38 snub, is that right ?. Any thoughts on the subject appreciated as it seems to be a caliber that doesn't get nearly so much airtime as the more powerful options. Also any recommendations on JHP selection please.

Regards,

Mike H
 
The 380 is not an inaccurate caliber and neither is the 40.First you have to define accurate.Are you talking match or combat.Both calibers are probably going to be more accurate then the average person can shoot.
Second I think I would buy maks or PA 63 before bersa but that is my opinion only.
The 380 rd is not good as a .38 snub.In fact it is eather anemic.The snub is harder to shoot because of its size and short siteing raduis.OK you have my opinions for what they are worth.
Jhp selection?MAny good one out there.Buy quality such as winchester remington or corbon.

------------------
beemerb
We have a criminal jury system which is superior to any in the world;
and its efficiency is only marred by the difficulty of finding twelve men
every day who don't know anything and can't read.
-Mark Twain
 
There is no bright line cut-off between good and bad bullets. While a .45 is probably better than a .25, a well placed .25 will do more damage than a poorly placed .45.

A .380ACP (AKA 9mm Kurtz or 9mm Short) is basically a short version of the 9mm round. Same diameter bullet, but usually lighter and with less powder. Granted, it won't do as much damage as a similarly placed 9mm, .40 or .45, but the issue is "Will it do enough damage to stop whoever needs to be stopped?"

Some say a 9mm is the smallest defensive round you should carry (and some say a 9mm isn't enough). What I say is carry as much power as possible. Would I carry a .380? Sure, I carry my PPK fairly often. Do I feel better armed with my 9mm, .40 or .45's? You bet. Then why should I carry the PPK? Because you can't carry a Sig 229 or a Glock 23 in an ankle holster.
 
Hello. While .380ACP is a "light" caliber for self-defense, it would do with proper loads and placement. The latter is easier said than done under stress. I've owned a couple of Bersas and both were good value for the money in my opinion. .380ACP is not an inaccurate round inherently, at least in my experience. If you both like the Bersas and the caliber, go for it. It really doesn't matter what others think; what makes you happy? Best and good luck.
 
Why go with .380 when you can get a decent, small 9mm for about the same price these days?

Are you looking to just shoot at the range, or are you and the Mrs. going to be carrying these guns for self defense?

If they're not going to be carried, or if hers isn't going to be carried, consider investing in a semi-auto for you, and a used S&W .38 or .357 for her to help introduce her to the shooting sports.

------------------
Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
The .380ACP is to the .38 special as the .38 special is to the 9mm. Looking at raw numbers ...

A .380ACP Remington Golden Saber 102gr bullet has a velocity of 925fps @ 194fpe expanding to 0.62" and penetrating 8.8" in clothed gelatin with a 67% one shot stopping capability. If we compare a similar bullet, the .38 special Remington Golden Saber 125gr has a velocity of 975fps @ 264fpe expanding to 0.59" and penetrating 14.5" in clothed gelatin with a 73% one shot stopping capability.

Comparing other bullet types across the two calibers will show similar results. So, you can see that there is a difference between the .380ACP and the .38 special.

The advantage the .380ACP has over the .38 special is that it is easier to shot since the recoil is much less and depending on the model, you can get 11 rounds when compared to 5 or 6 rounds with the .38 special.
64CHEETAHNICK.jpg

Certain models (Beretta, Browning, etc.) held 13 rounds and pre-ban hi-cap mags are still around. 14 rounds of .380ACP beats 6 rounds of .38 special any day of the week. Even 11 rounds of .380ACP will give 6 rounds of .38 special a good run for the money.
cheetah.gif

Unfortunately, I can't say anything favorable about Bersa as my own personal experience has been negative with regard to their products. I would recommend a compact (not sub-compact as they would be harder to shoot accurately and you lose the "many round" advantage) model such as one of the Beretta's or Browning's that I made reference to.

Of course, if recoil for the Mrs is not a problem, you may want to consider a 9mm parabellum such as SIG P239 or a {pre-sellout} S&W3913. For the sake of being consistent, a 9mm Remington Golden Saber 124gr bullet has a velocity of 1180fps @ 384fpe expanding to 0.66" and penetrating 14.3" in clothed gelatin with a 83% one shot stopping capability -- much better than a similar bullet in .38 special and much, much better than a similar bullet in .380ACP!

Hope this has been of some help. Regards,
FUD
fudeagle.gif

Share what you know, learn what you don't.

[This message has been edited by FUD (edited June 12, 2000).]
 
As branrot and others have pointed out, the single most important determinate in handgun effectiveness is shot placement. If you and your wife like the Bersa, you will practice with it, and ultimately, practice (& training) is what leads to proper shot placement. There are good .380 rounds such as Corbon 90 gr +P, Fed. H/S 95 gr, Rem. Golden Sabre 102 gr available, and the Bersa is a decent gun. As Stephen said, don't worry about others think, and the BG is only going to see the business end and probably will be too worried about the imminenet decline in his health to b*tch about you shooting him with an 'budget' gun. Good luck & stay safe, M2
 
Thanks for the replies so far.

I'm personally no novice handgunner, having a P228 and a Mod 10. The wife is insisting on a semi, she hates her mothers .38, and also wants us to do a qualification shoot together preceded by some formal training for her, for this shoot she wants us to have the same guns, hence the competition aspect. For the sake of getting her interested I'm happy to go along with what is otherwise a pretty pointless exercise as I already have an excellent (perhaps the best) 9mm that is perfectly serviceable for a qualification shoot. If anyone can suggest a decent double action 9mm for the same price as the Bersa I'm all ears. Oh, the intention is for range time primarily, we'll worry about carry after we see how she goes on.

Best

Mike H
 
See if you can rent a Kel Tec 9mm at a local range. I know a couple of people with them, and they are more than happy.

------------------
Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
Keeping it simple, a "typical" 9mm round has around 350 foot pounds of energy. A "typical" .380 round has just under 200 foot pounds of energy. There are some hi-quality .380 rounds that should deposit all that energy into the target. That's enough energy to move a 200lb. person a foot. That's a pretty good hit.

My .380 (an FEG) will do 2" groups at 15 yds., which is statistically far beyond the range it will be needed. Plenty good enough.

Bottom line, in my mind, is the .380 is enough if it means the difference between carrying and not. And that Bersa is smaller and lighter and costs less than the Kahr or Kel-Tec. I say go with your plan.
 
a makarov is less expensive than a bersa @ $129 delivered from JG Sales. And the 9x18 is 50% more powerful than a .380. And the Maks are VERY reliable. And you can get extra magazines for $1.50 each from Inter-Ordnance. And they are very easy to maintain. think about a makarov. i've got 2 myself and am thinking about a third.
 
The Bersas are indeed great guns at a great price. When I was assigned to vice/ undercover I was assigned a Walther PPKs .380 and it was a total piece of crap that fell apart during a tactical shooting seminar.

The Walther is a nice gun to say that you own on a fancy mantle, but don't count on it to be reliable. On the other hand...My Bersa 95 .380 has been proven to be reliable shot after shot! I've shot about a thousand rounds through it with not one malfunction.

I then bought a Sig Sauer P-230, great gun, works fine, But it didn't do any better or worse than my Bersa which was half the price!

I've seen the .380 do a lot of damage and it is indeed a very good round. Is it better than a 9mm or .40 round?......Of course not, But it's not a bad carry round for off duty, back-up, or to carry concealed.

------------------
 
I prefer the Beretta .380 with the single stack magazine; I think it is the model 85.

With this caliber, I would go with the hardball load in the heaviest weight readily available and then practice frequently. Shoot for center of mass and go for deep penetration.

The Makarov is an interesting option, but the double action trigger on this pistol is awful. The Beretta and the Browning .380, which is made by Beretta, have tolerable triggers out of the box. Of course, if you can get a decent smith to improve the Makarov trigger, that choice would make it a viable possibility.

The .380 is the smallest caliber I would carry for self-defense. However, my current small gun is a Bodyguard in .38 Special.

------------------
We have never been modern.
 
Three years ago I purchased a Colt Mustang Pocketlite. It's my "exercise" pistol. I carry it in a Galco hip pack when I go for walks in the park. The Mustang is completely reliable and very light. Just 12.5 ozs.
I feel pretty good about the .380.

Will

------------------
Mendacity is the system we live in.
 
I’ve always thought the .380 was a bit underrated. Sure, if push came to shove, I’d much rather have a 9mm or .45. But consider the pros of a .380:
* low recoil so easy to shoot well. This is especially true with larger pistols like the Beretta.
* moderate muzzle blast means less chance of hearing damage if you have to fire it indoors sans protection.
* less chance of over-penetration, a big consideration if you’re an apartment dweller

In terms of specific guns, I think the Bersas are very attractive guns with good ergonomics, but I’ve found them to be very unreliable and prone to fouling. My buddies hardly ever would feed hps, grouped several inches from point of aim, would start jamming after 50 rounds, and the safety would occasionally engage itself. Some shooters seem to really like them, so maybe the company has improved its product.

I love my .380 Makarov, though I wish I’d got it in 9mm Mak. It’s a bit rough, but totally reliable, accurate, and easy to maintain. The DA trigger can be gritty at first, but not terrible. The SA trigger has always been great. Plus, accessories for Makarovs are plentiful and cheap.

Have you considered the CZ-85 .380? I hear nothing but great things about them, and they are reasonably priced. As a historical note, the CZ-85 was the pistol of choice of infamous terrorist Carlos “the Jackal.”
 
Actually that is a CZ-83, which is also avalible in 9mm makarov. Very nice guns according to all that I have heard about them.
 
Mike H,
Sense the advent of the "mini Glocks", yes I'm afraid the 9mm short is decased. The .380 is just too weak of a round even compared with it's "big brother" the 9mm parabellum to be seriously considered as a "good" defense cartridge. I would get a Glock 26(9x19), G27(.40 auto), G30(.45ACP), or a G33(.357SIG). All are subcompact pistols that fit in the palm of your hand. All have the legendary Glock accuracy, toughness, and quality. All are reasonably affordable.

As to loads, I would stoke your new Glock with either Remington Golden Sabers (That is what I use), Corbons, or Speer Gold Dots. These are the best (in my opinion) loads out there.

Go ahead, buy two, Gaston will make more. :) :)

------------------
BOYCOTT SMITH AND WESSON!!!
Defend the Constitution from the foreign threat!!!!

"Man killing is nasty business"---Finn Aggard
 
I'd aver that a Mak is simple enough that one could do one's own trigger job, esp. if one goes to makarov.com and gets the directions. It is certainly no worse than the average ruger revolver. Of course, I started with an East German Mak, so that may explain the difference between my experiences and those of others.
 
Mike H:

9x17 accuracy out of my SIG P230SL was excellent. Good selections include Remington 102gr. Golden Saber, CorBon 115gr+P and a few others.

That's the problem. 9x17 ammo is usually more expensive with only a few JHP choices compared to the 9x19. That makes the 9x17 a declining market with subcompact nines like the Glock and Kahr alike.

The 9x17 is a Dead Duck but it will take care of business. It's just the 9x19 takes care of business more expeditiously and is cheaper with far more choices available.


Regards,
Hann
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top