Is 25 yards practical for handgun accuracy evaluation?
- Thread starter kingknives
- Start date
Interesting and informative posts. From what a bunch of you are saying (I particularly like the 'increase your confidence' and 'push the envelope' thoughts), I guess I'm just going to need to spend more time at the range to thoroughly evaluate it all ... the burdens we shooters must bear 
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"Government is not reason; it is not eloquence. It is power. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearsome master." George Washington
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"Government is not reason; it is not eloquence. It is power. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearsome master." George Washington
I've always liked shooting my 1911's beyond 25 yards, won some side bets out to 200 yards when I was shooting 2,000 rounds a week.
While I agree that most defensive uses of handguns will be a lot less than 25 yards, there have been those times where the action started at ranges well beyond 7 yards. If you don't practice at longer ranges, what are you going to do if some idjet decides that shooting you from from 50 feet away is a good idea? Try to move into your 7 yard range? Die? you had better have some idea how to shoot pretty well at that range.
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Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
"If there be treachery, let there be jehad!"
While I agree that most defensive uses of handguns will be a lot less than 25 yards, there have been those times where the action started at ranges well beyond 7 yards. If you don't practice at longer ranges, what are you going to do if some idjet decides that shooting you from from 50 feet away is a good idea? Try to move into your 7 yard range? Die? you had better have some idea how to shoot pretty well at that range.
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Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
"If there be treachery, let there be jehad!"
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by schlickenmeyer:
According to the statistics I get from my instructor, 7-10 yards is the distance average of 90% + of self-defense shootings.
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More like 7-10 feet in reality. I would suspect only a small portion of legitimate self-defense shootings occur beyond 7 yards (21 feet), though I don't have any hard data. Does anyone?
According to the statistics I get from my instructor, 7-10 yards is the distance average of 90% + of self-defense shootings.
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More like 7-10 feet in reality. I would suspect only a small portion of legitimate self-defense shootings occur beyond 7 yards (21 feet), though I don't have any hard data. Does anyone?
My guess is that a need to shoot someone with a handgun beyond 21 feet would only occur in a war scenario. Any legitimate self-defense situation for a private citizen in peace time would require a person to run away before using a firearm at such a distance.
BTW, my Walther P99 came with a test target with shots delivered at 25 meters (over 75 feet). The group is about five inches. That performance is still within the kill zone for most upright goblins. I doubt if I will ever need it, but it is good to know.
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We have never been modern.
BTW, my Walther P99 came with a test target with shots delivered at 25 meters (over 75 feet). The group is about five inches. That performance is still within the kill zone for most upright goblins. I doubt if I will ever need it, but it is good to know.
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We have never been modern.
Trevor wrote: "My guess is that a need to shoot someone with a handgun beyond 21 feet would only occur in a war scenario."
Boy Scout Manual: "Be Prepared"
Anyway, what you're really testing is the combination of your gun and your ammo. 25 yards gives you a slightly better idea of which combination is more accurate at, oh say around about 25 yards. You should test your gun/ammo combo at various ranges (no, not shooting ranges, various distances) so you know what to expect.
Ledbetter
Boy Scout Manual: "Be Prepared"
Anyway, what you're really testing is the combination of your gun and your ammo. 25 yards gives you a slightly better idea of which combination is more accurate at, oh say around about 25 yards. You should test your gun/ammo combo at various ranges (no, not shooting ranges, various distances) so you know what to expect.
Ledbetter
The starting place for learning "combat" shooting is the ability to put all your shots in the black of a 25 yard center at 25 yards. At least, that was the thought in the "old days". Anyone who cannot hit a man silouette target at 50 yards repeatedly with a sidearm is not a shooter.
For years, the U. S. military has considered handguns to be "effective" out to 50 yards, or meters, more recently. Qualifications in the service and law enforcement used to be conducted out to 50 yards.
There has been a serious cheapening of the standards in the last 25 years. Police type qualifications now call for expending multiple rounds in short time limits, allowing for missing one in five rounds. Sorry, it just doesn't cut it.
25 yards is a good baseline for handgun accuracy. Self defense is typically closer, but not without exception. Having more ability than what is called for is never a problem.
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Archie
For years, the U. S. military has considered handguns to be "effective" out to 50 yards, or meters, more recently. Qualifications in the service and law enforcement used to be conducted out to 50 yards.
There has been a serious cheapening of the standards in the last 25 years. Police type qualifications now call for expending multiple rounds in short time limits, allowing for missing one in five rounds. Sorry, it just doesn't cut it.
25 yards is a good baseline for handgun accuracy. Self defense is typically closer, but not without exception. Having more ability than what is called for is never a problem.
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Archie
I have a Sig 239 in 40 S&W and one day after having shot a regular qualification course of fire, I decided to see what the little gun could do at 100 yards on a regular B-27 target. I had sandbags and a good bench to utilize. I held on the head, knowing that the drop would be considerable. When i walked up to teh target, I was amazed that the magazine full of rounds all struck the silohute(?). I am not bragging, just pointing out that under controlled conditions, with proper equipment, and no stress induced problems, that little handgun is quite capable of being lethal way out there!!
Chris McDermott
New member
I think most of you have missed the point of accuracy testing of guns - it's to see how accurate the gun is, NOT how accurate the gun writer (or you) can shoot it in a combat situation. Trying to decide accuracy of a gun at 10 yards is almost impossible - the bullets haven't even finished stablilizing yet. Even 25 yards isn't really enough, most of the really good shooters in my Bullseye pistol league insist that you have to test accuracy at 50 yards or longer.
Opinion - You should shoot NRA Bullseye for the same reason master pianists still do exercise scales - to perfect your technique. Even if you can't shoot it in formal competition, use your Weaver or Isosceles stance or whatever and try using the appropriate Bullseye target for your range distance (50 ft, 20 yard, 25 yard, 50 yard slow fire) and see how accurate you really can shoot. An improper grip, poor trigger control etc. will be much more apparent than on a seven yard full size silhouette target.
Opinion - You should shoot NRA Bullseye for the same reason master pianists still do exercise scales - to perfect your technique. Even if you can't shoot it in formal competition, use your Weaver or Isosceles stance or whatever and try using the appropriate Bullseye target for your range distance (50 ft, 20 yard, 25 yard, 50 yard slow fire) and see how accurate you really can shoot. An improper grip, poor trigger control etc. will be much more apparent than on a seven yard full size silhouette target.
I shoot a full-size 1911 in IPSC competition, and a compact in IDPA. We had an IPSC match last weekend that I knew would include a 50yd shot. I'd never fired the gun at anything more than 25 yards away (and rarely at anything more than 50' away), so I set up a target at 50, and fired a couple of rounds. The gun was hitting about 3" to the right of center - which was not perceptible at shorter ranges. I go two D-zone hits (low) at the match. At an IDPA match, the scenario involved engaging a "sniper", first at 75 yards, then 50, then 25. This was to simulate the sniper working his way toward the shooter after discovering he was under fire. My 3.5" barrelled gun had never been fired at anything more than 50 feet away, so I had no idea where it would shoot at 75 yards. We were allowed to "shoot as much as you want", so I sent two each at the 25 and 50, and fired four at the 75 (Okay, for you "tactical" types: two at the 75, two at the 50, two at the 25, and two more at the 75). I had two decent hits on each target. Even if scenario is unlikely, it's comforting to know that you can hit a target, under pressure, even at longer ranges.
I going to agree with Archie and Rick B on this one. What really concerns me is the idea that you dont need to shoot a handgun at 25 yards. That distance is crucial to properly sighting in your handgun, it is the minimum distance for evaluating how well your sights are adjusted. The one ragged hole at 7,10,15 yards dont mean much, but at 25 yards is where the cream begins to rise to the top. Every handgun shooter should know his/her limits and to get there you need to make a run at 25yd, and 50yd and beyond. RickB has the right idea, shooting at 50yd, just think how easy that 25 and 15 will be later. Someone stated in a prvious post that most shooting are around 7-10 yards and that should be 7-10 feet, and 2.7 rounds are fired. If I'm caught in a large empty parking lot like a football stadium and some jerk is taking shots at me from 25yd and there is no cover for me to acquire I know that I can connect on him at that range and well beyond. I just dont see limiting yourself to practicing at the short distances only. If you become proficient at the longer distances the short up close targets will become a cake walk and you are not really testing yourself or your gun.
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No man is above the law and no man is below it,nor do we ask any mans permission when we require him to obey it.
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No man is above the law and no man is below it,nor do we ask any mans permission when we require him to obey it.