Is 25 yards practical for handgun accuracy evaluation?

K

kingknives

New member
I've noticed over the years that a majority, if not all, handgun writers test their pistols accuracy at 25 yards. This has always confused me in that it does not seem practical for a hanguns designed use.
Sure, it's nice to know that your carry gun can make a head shot at 25+ yards if need be, and I'll often put the target out there to try a few shots. But I'll do most of my work at 3 to 10 yards. To me this is a more realistic distance for possible confrontations.
What do you think? ;)

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Knee deep in brass, still shootin fast!
 
I agree with you Kingknives, especially with semi auto center fire guns. I go for keeping all of my shots in a 3" bull at 30-35 feet, with full power loads, rapid fire. That is plenty accurate enough for me. I have several guns I can do that with, and they ain't for sale :-)

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Good shootin to ya
Plateshooter
 
One is testing and the other is training.

The 25 yard standard is probably a hold over from the bullseye days. For accuracy testing it could just as well be any distance, but a little longer distance shows up the differences more quickly/easily. Handguns intended for hunting should probably be tested at even longer ranges.

Having a standard allows comparison between loads, guns and shooters.

In practice for close quarter confrontations 3 to 10 yards is a good distance range. However, and this is purely my opinion, I think some sight acquisition practice at 25 or more yards, using very small targets/aiming points will improve speed and shrink groups at 3 yards.

Plus knowing what you and your gun can do as a unit is a legitimate part of weapon craft. And adding distance between you and the target can really magnify the impact of small errors which can then be corrected.

Also I read a lot of gun tests nowdays, mostly of smaller defense guns, where the testing is done at 10 of 15 yards. It's probably my age showing, but I vaguely equate this change, on an emotional level, with dropping the standards in public education because so many students don't look good with the tougher standards.

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Jim Fox
 
The club I belong to only has outdoor facilities with a minimum of 25 yards unless you are the only one there (not too often) in which case you can venture past the firing line. This is OK for the variety of plinkers I have. I take my Ruger SRH and scoped T/C Contender barrels out to 100 yards. My self-defense handguns though I practice with at indoor range from 3 to 10 yards as plateshooter does concentrating on a 3" bull and rapid firing.

[This message has been edited by JBP (edited July 09, 2000).]
 
A related question, something I've wondered about since I started reading gun forums: I can understand 25 yds. for testing, but is that free holding the gun, or is the gun locked into a bench support of some type?

It's a bit intimidating, as a new shooter, to see posts about 1" groups at 25 yds. On the advice of a range officer, I've been practicing at 15 yds., and I see my groups tightening. But I also see comments regarding using handguns for defensive purposes, that a situation over about 30 feet probably isn't going to happen. Is it generally true that anything over 15 yds. is probably in the realm of 'official' target shooting?

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"Government is not reason; it is not eloquence. It is power. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearsome master." George Washington
 
According to the statistics I get from my instructor, 7-10 yards is the distance average of 90% + of self-defense shootings.
on the other hand, he has us practice open sights on a man-sized target at 100 yards to show that it can be done, and done well..

hope this helps.
 
I think the 25 yard testing is valid in that it will show what your gun/ammo combination will do. If you need to make an eye-socket head shot at 10yards (say, to save a child/hostage) then it becomes very critical (along with confidence boosting).

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keep your options open &
never miss!
 
JimFox wrote--
"One is testing and the other is training. . . . Handguns intended for hunting should probably be tested at even longer ranges. . . . knowing what you and your gun can do as a unit is a legitimate part of weapon craft."

Kingknives and Plateshooter--No argument intended, but a couple of observations may be in appropriate - - -

It reinforces one's self confidence when you can take out a skunk or coyote with your carry piece. And I'm glad to know that I can probably convince a felon to stay behind a car at a hundred yards, pending arrival of the tactical team. A bullet striking such cover is loud AND scary.

Two recent encounters: The Hollywood bank standoff, when two partly armored guys with automatic weapons held off police until officers could borrow rifles. We've seen videos of officers behind cars within 25 yards of those shooters. And at the Columbine tragedy, at least one officer swapped shots with the goblins at about sixty FEET, not yards.

It IS a different thing to REALLY see the elephant, and valid to say that is not bench rest slow fire. But cops and soldiers and hunters have been making tough shots for generations. You don't develop such skills by just saying, "Well, that's too far for pistol shooting."

Your guns, your ammo--you practice however you want. Twenty feet IS a more common gunfight range. But scorn not those who seek to expand their own envelopes.

Best,
RR

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---The Second Amendment ensures the rest of the Bill of Rights---

[This message has been edited by Rocky Road (edited July 09, 2000).]
 
Put all the previous together and you get a real good picture.

If bad guy starts at you from 7 yards out you are going to be hard pressed to clear leather and get a shot off before he has your gun or has cut you. We are lucky enough to have set up where one or more goblins can move on you from any distance. If a range is available with target pulls, have partner start target return and you draw and stop it. Start big and work down to little pie plates. Lots of fun and gets the defensive skills honed quickly.

tl...yes, the 25 yard target shooting is done upright and hand held. The old National Match three gun course had the slow fire targets at 75yds, this was done with service type guns, wheel and semi, one handed.

Sam....my favorite 9mm is the 9X32R
 
As long as I'm proficient with both hands at 10 yards, I'm happy. I'll let "Greg Gungrease" and "Mike Muzzleflash" with "Gun Hype News" continue their paid endorsements with the 25-yard tests. ;)

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"When guns are outlawed;I will be an outlaw."
 
Hey Rocky Road, I sure enjoy shooting at sillouettes out to 100 yds with my scoped revolvers, and 50 yards at paper and plates with my deer hunting handguns. I just couldn't do it with my IDPA/defensive semi autos. With my shooting skills, the paper targets would be pretty safe at 25 yds with a 9mm. Don't know your age, but in the "old days" when semi autos were not very popular, we used to shoot PDP courses that had 50 yard stages from baracade and prone with revolvers. It was pretty impressive what those wheel guns would do. Of course we were allowed to use target wad cutter ammo instead of full power duty loads. Shooting with a police department then, I could see where a LEO surely may be in a position to do that type of shooting. For my floppy barrel bullet launchers, I'll have to stick to the close range targets. They seem to work really well for that.

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Good shootin to ya
Plateshooter
 
kingknives,

Your question assumes that all handguns are combat weapons. Actually weapons used in PPC are expected to perform well at 50 yards.

I have three handguns and not a weapon in the lot as they are all made for target/hunting/competition. For these 25 or even 50 yards make great sense. Of course they do quite well at 7 yards.
 
I agree that there are many pistols that need to be, and are quite capable of, accuracy of 25 to 100 yards and more. Silhoutte, bullseye, hunting etc..
I was talking about carry pistols, which I think a majority of handguns are.
I also agree that it's good to know what you and your handgun are capable of. I often put down the AR-15 and try a few long distance shots, 25-50 yards and more sometimes with my pistol. It builds confidence close up when you know that you can make the distance shots if your in a bind.
I just would not want to judge a pistols accuracy purely by it's 25 yard targets.

I remember reading a review of the Taurus PT-111 when it first came out, by a very old and wise gunwriter. This is a sub-compact 9mm, yet he did the shooting at 25 yards?
Needless to say, it did not fair to well.

BTW: I do remember seeing Bob Munden, on American Shooter, shooting steel plates at 100 yards with a 2" .38 snubnose. he hit more than he missed!
 
25 yards is unreasonable for eavluating handgun accuracy for self defense or concealed carry purposes.

Would you shoot someone with a handgun at 25 yards? Probably not unless you were a SWAT officer caught without his AR15 carbine.

I agree with what tl and rocky road are stating. Since the practical use of a handgun zone is 10-25 feet anything too far beyond that is bad practice.

I use 40-45 feet as a good benchmark distance for testing reload and handgun accuracy because steel plates tournaments are also shot in that range. :)




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The Seattle SharpShooter - TFL/GT/UGW/PCT/KTOG
 
tl,

It would be intimidating if all the 1" groups @ 25yds you read about were acquired from a standing position, free holding the gun. Worry not! There are some who can probably do that (I am not of their number!), but "testing" is done over sand bags or in a Ransom Rest to eliminate as much human interference as possible and therefore test the gun/ammo combination. If you read the fine print under a gun writer's "Results Chart" it will tell you how they tested, ie..bags, Ransom Rest, whatever.

Jack

[This message has been edited by Jack Straw (edited July 10, 2000).]
 
I'm with JimFox, Rocky Road, and C.R.Sam. I think everybody should try to push is own envelope, there is nothing wrong with small, rapid groups at 10 yards; and there is certainly nothing wrong doing the same (albeit slower) at 25. IF you are restricted by time/ammo, then shorter ranges are more important from a defensive standpoint. I'm an enthusiast, and I'm allways trying to shoot beyond my former limits: faster, at longer ranges, etc. If you have an accurate weapon (still not match/super expensive), with a little practice you can shoot VERY well at 75 and 100 yards. Last weekend we were trying a Bersa 22 (...hardly a match gun) up to 100 yards, offhand, and we were hitting a lot!! (6" metal plates) Of course this was no "tactical training" but gives you a tremendous sense of confidence on what can eventually be done with the weapon. I like a series of a few 5 shot groups at 25 yards as a standard test (with several types/weight of ammo), and even better from a machine rest. Of course invididual weapons of the same brand will perform differently, but at least you get an idea.
 
Well.... I am not going to argue the merits of long distance shooting... good or bad...

But I will tell you... If you are going to be at the IDPA Nationals.... You better be prepared for some standards... at distances LONGER than 15 yards...

;)

Bubba
 
Somebody once explained this to me and I don't know how true it is but it does make a certain amount of sense ...

... If you don't have the resources to practise rapid fire against a moving target at close range (most public ranges don't have moving targets and rapid fire is also frowned upon), then you have to make certain trade-offs ...

... Shooting at a stationary target 25 yards away would be reasonably the same as shooting at a moving target at half that distance or 12.5 yards away. Additionally, when you're shooting at the 25 yard target, you are shooting under calm, slow conditions which is not the case when you're shooting in self defense purposes. This would cut the distance in half again to 6.25 yards.

In other words, you're ability to hit a stationary target 25 yards away under calm, controlled conditions will be "about" the same as having to fire at a moving target 6 yards away under fast & stressful conditions.

Of course, if have access to better & proper training conditions, then none of this is an issue.

Share what you know, learn what you don't -- FUD
fud-nra.gif
 
I can tell you for a fact why American Rifleman tests its handguns at 25 yards (or at least they did when I was with them from 1990 to 1994).

That was the distance to the backstop on the indoor range that they had at the time, and there was no really easy way to set the target at an intermediate range without a lot of hassle.

Now that they are in the new range facilities, I've noticed them testing handguns at ranges more suitable to their actual use.

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
Firearms are ranged weapons. Although most confrontations occur close in, we should be able to take advantage of the range afforded by sidearms to respond in kind, control terrain, neutralize subjects at a distance, etc. So, some training at 25 yards (or further) is necessary.

As to whether I would shoot at someone t 25 yards with a handgun, hell yes! If I had to shoot at someone, it wouldn't matter if he were at 3 yards or 30!

[This message has been edited by buzz_knox (edited July 10, 2000).]
 
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