Irresponsible Open Carry Activism Jeopardizes The RKBA

jimbob86 said:
That was so they (California) could legally say that they were not stomping all over Californian's 2A rights- they could still bear arms, just not loaded ones. ....
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Actually, it wasn't. No one really thought about carrying unloaded guns as "bearing arms" until fairly recently. It mostly had to do with everyday types of management of guns. like carrying guns you just brought home from the range or hunting from your car into your house.

jimbob86 said:
..All we need is a deep pocket Californian to bring suit.
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Well, in case you haven't been keeping up on current events, there are quite a number of lawsuits going on right now. See this thread.
 
Those of you who seem to think there is some equality between Civie OC and LE OC are playing right into the ego wannabe role. When your job is to turn on the flashy lights and head towards the bang-bang sounds you are in a different category.

And, as often happens in this discussion, many of you have strayed from the issue of the confrontational OCers to the issue of the greater right of OC. I'm all for the latter, the former need to grow up and stop making us look bad. The right to OC can be exercised without making a scene, looking for attention or antagonizing LE and the rest of the populace. It is not an "all or nothing" situation.

-RJP
 
I have CC'd for years now and OC'd before that. I have no problem with people doing so with respect and reguard to others. I personally think OC is just as much a right as CC. They are both part of the RKBA. What we need is to realize that there are people who do stupid stuff. There always have and always will, no matter what it involves. It sickens me to see people abuse the right to OC. Truth be told, it is going to happen and it is up to the rest of the firearm owners to educate people of the benefits of OC, CC or even the RKBA. There will always be a few bad apples, we must stop them from spoiling the bunch. Just as there will always be people who dislike firearms( they have that right), there will be firearm owners who abuse it.
 
Rob Pincus said:
Those of you who seem to think there is some equality between Civie OC and LE OC are playing right into the ego wannabe role.
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I do not carry openly, and have only rarely carried concealed. I noted that OC does desensitise people to it as demonstrated by OC by POs, about whom people complain for OC rarely, if ever.

What ego wannabe role would that be?

Rob Pincus said:
When your job is to turn on the flashy lights and head towards the bang-bang sounds you are in a different category.
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Indeed, that puts you into a category of people even more responsible for observing peoples' rights.

Rob Pincus said:
And, as often happens in this discussion, many of you have strayed from the issue of the confrontational OCers to the issue of the greater right of OC. I'm all for the latter, the former need to grow up and stop making us look bad.
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I do not agree with the sentiment that POs should not respond to complaints; taking a look to see if there is really something to complain about is part of the work.

No one can create a confrontation single handedly by virtue of legal OC unless a PO makes it one. It takes two to make a confrontation. That's the lesson of the video of the well handled stop.
 
^ I like what he said.

Long story short, if the cops didn't violate people rights in the first place we wouldn't be having this conversation. In essence, the OP is blaming the victim. Kind of like saying "she was dressed to sexy so it's not the rapists fault".
 
No one can create a confrontation single handedly by virtue of legal OC unless a PO makes it one. It takes two to make a confrontation. That's the lesson of the video of the well handled stop.
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+1.

At one time in this country, kids took guns to school to shoot on school rifle teams. Now our HS trap team can't even have a shotgun logo in the school yearbook, because the other side of this issue has convinced the general public that "GUNS ARE BAD!!!!!!!!!!111111!" So we should just play into that and not OC? It's legal, do it if that's what you want to do.

Having video evidence works to protect everybody involved: There are officers like Daniel Harless out there, and if not for video evidence, he'd still be out there. I'm pretty sure that officers that have gotten into trouble for harassing people doing nothing illegal serve as a reminder that the police are not "The Law"- they just are paid full time to enforce it.

As for the "You are not the Police!" argument: This is where we have gone wrong, IMO.

I give you Sir Robert Peel:

"The Police are the Public, and the Public are the Police."

Go look up the Peelian Principles. You will note that they are not adhered to much these days.... thus we have Officers speaking of Citizens as "civilians" .... as if what? That they are Military? They often dress like it, with combat boots and military hardware, up to and including armored vehichles, in some cases....... down this road lies an "Us vs. Them" bunker mentality...... this has never worked, as it turns the people against the police, and they can not succeed in police work without the support of the people. Sir Robert Peel stated this over 150 years ago..... Lawdog wrote on it a few years back..... go read.

http://thelawdogfiles.blogspot.com/2008/04/police-are-public-and-public-are-police.html
 
NJgunowner said:
...In essence, the OP is blaming the victim. Kind of like saying "she was dressed to sexy so it's not the rapists fault".
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Not the same thing at all. The rape victim isn't looking to get raped.

But if someone is seeking a confrontation and consciously acts in a way to provoke one, he really can't complain when he gets one.
 
But if someone is seeking a confrontation and consciously acts in a way to provoke one, he really can't complain when he gets one.
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Likewise, if some Daniel Harless wannabe harasses or assaults someone enaged in perfectly legal activity, he can't really complain when he gets into trouble, either.

I know of at least one one gun owner that was put on the ground and cuffed in Omaha because he was legally CCWing....... if he had video of that, maybe such things would not be so commonplace there.
 
Frank Ettin said:
But if someone is seeking a confrontation and consciously acts in a way to provoke one, he really can't complain when he gets one.
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By that standard, did Rosa Parks have anything to complain about?

I would say that we are using a word, confrontation, that might cover a lot of very different sorts of encounters.

If a PO gets a complaint about someone armed, prudence requires that he take a look. Diplomacy might have him ask some questions, and let him know that he was responding to a complaint. I wouldn't consider that a confrontation.

Where a PO detains or arrests someone for nothing more than a failure to waive rights or a crumby attitude, it's fair to label that a confrontation.
 
It's not the act itself,,,

It's not the act itself,,,
But how the act is performed.

One officer in our local PD has already stated,,,
He will stop each and every person he sees carrying a handgun openly.

He has stated that he is strongly against the new open carry law,,,
And he will stop everyone he sees and ask them to show their carry permit.

When asked if he will stop the same person multiple times,,,
His answer was How am I supposed to remember everyone I come into contact with.

A well planned strategy would be to frequent his patrol area,,,
Cooperate fully and give no reason for the officer to escalate his actions,,,
But have your little voice recorder running and record each and every word of the interaction.

I would think that after a third stop (maybe even a second),,,
One would have reasonable cause to register a formal complaint.

My point here is that sometimes the authorities in power need to be confronted,,,
Just do it with a good plan and don't be stupid in it's implementation.

If you are going to bait a cop to uncover illegal/harassing activity,,,
You should have a well thought out strategy.

Aarond

P.S. Rather than bait the officer I wrote a letter to the Chief of Police,,,
In it I asked him what the policies for his department will be,,,
I gave my name, address, and E-mail address,,,
I sent the letter by registered mail,,,
I have received no reply as yet.

.
 
It's either a right or it's not.
Until tested it's just a theory.

OC is simply that testing and negative reactions are the seeds of prohibition being planted by the ignorant or openly anti RKBA.

If the trained police depts can't deal with open carry then what chance does our 2nd amendment have with the uninformed.

These are necessary, albeit painful steps toward a return to full recognition of our right.

I find defending my rights based on public comfort distasteful at best.
 
Microgunner said:
...I find defending my rights based on public comfort distasteful at best.
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It's not a matter of that. It's a matter of choosing the most effective ways to further the RKBA. It's about picking one's fights and fighting smart.
 
Frank, I fail to se how this is "Civil Disobedience".

It would be Civil Disobedience if someone were to OC where it was against the law, intentionally breaking the law, to get arrested and videotape the arrest.

What we are talking about here is being detained or worse for doing something that is not illegal. Rob and seveal of the other posters are condemning OC activists for "baiting" cops by OCing.

If a cop goes to investigate, and everybody goes their merry way, no harm, no foul. It gets videotaped and the cop looks good on camera.

If on the other hand, the Officer goes all Harless on the activists, and it gets videotaped, and the world finds out what a bad apple he is, well then, how is that a bad thing?

From an activist's point of view, toting around something that looks like a machine pistol is probably a bad plan ...... but just OCing a handgun? It's legal.

Those of us who believe the police are TheOnlyOnes need to rethink that, or find a country without a Bill of Rights that says that "the Right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. I hear England is nice .... you just have to jump through a few hoops to have a firearm.....
 
It's about picking one's fights and fighting smart.
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Some folks here seem to be advocating running away from one.

"Don't OC because the public is not used to that and will call the police, and you (and us, by association) will look bad."

How do you suppose the public will get used to OC?

The other side has engaged in activism on a massive scale for 50+ years ..... as a result, their message is now the default position for the uninformed.
 
If you, as a concealed carrier, see a person openly carrying an AR-15 into a theatre, do you leave? Or do you yell, HIP, HIP, HURRAY for the RKBA.

What would you actually do? Would you tune up to flee or shoot the guy?

This is today's world, not someone carrying a 30-30 into the cafe in the boonies during deer season.

Just wanted to ask.
 
All good points Glenn.
It's that line we are being forced to draw in the sand that bothers me.
Who gets to draw the line and what are the consequences?
 
What strikes me as hilarious in this thread is thinking about the 1960s and 1970s when it was left-wing activists who were toting the guns in public. The conservative, get-a-haircut crowd was worried, and now look at us. We just don't see how the wheel has turned.
 
Quote:
It's about picking one's fights and fighting smart.

Some folks here seem to be advocating running away from one.

"Don't OC because the public is not used to that and will call the police, and you (and us, by association) will look bad."

How do you suppose the public will get used to OC?

The other side has engaged in activism on a massive scale for 50+ years ..... as a result, their message is now the default position for the uninformed.
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On the flip side carrying around an imitation MAC 10 just falls right into their hands and showing OCers as wack jobs.

Rosa Parks was protesting a law. If there is no law to protest and you're stated goal is to make Joe Blow more comfortable, this is like the exact opposite of the smart way to do it.
 
If you, as a concealed carrier, see a person openly carrying an AR-15 into a theatre, do you leave? Or do you yell, HIP, HIP, HURRAY for the RKBA.

What would you actually do? Would you tune up to flee or shoot the guy?

This is today's world, not someone carrying a 30-30 into the cafe in the boonies during deer season.

Just wanted to ask.
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Excellent point and reflects the real situation. If you're trying to support RKBA and make OC more acceptible, don't act like an idiot.
 
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