Irresponsible Gun Owners - What Can We Do?

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Hi,

You have received lots of different advice here. Let me add my two cents. There are two approaches.

The hardball approach would be to pay or ask as lawyer (never hurts, find a pro-gun lawyer or one who represents LEOs)or ask a LEO or a pastor or somesuch to send them some decent literature on gun safety on behalf of "an anonymous client or associate," and put them on notice that if a child is hurt because of their negligence, they won't be able to deny knowing the right thing to do.

A softer approach would be to send the material yourself and take them to the range with their kids if they promise to read and abide by it. Tell them your a cowardly old fogie if you have to.

Your doing a good thing by helping these people. Give them this website address.
Good luck.

------------------
Show someone the way
to the NRA
 
Hmm,
Notice from your profile you're from Grafton. The Grafton I remember was 99.99% farming. Looks like city ways and city people may have gobbled up another farm community.
What you describe is pretty much the same as when we used to play farmer in high school over off Rt76 and Rt303. Everybody had a .22 in the garage, and most of the doors were always open.

[This message has been edited by RAE (edited March 14, 2000).]
 
Jeff Thomas,

Jeff I wasn't exaggerating when I wrote
that a majority of the folks who were
hand carrying handguns at the show-
presumably for sale or trade- were carrying
them with their fingers on the triggers.
As far as being painted with a muzzle;
I'm not talking during a swing thru to
position the muzle in a safe direction for
inspection, I'm talking about pointing them
at passersby with no thought being given
to minimum safety.

I've been in the broadcast news business
thirty-six years. Believe me when I tell
you that there are a LOT of reporters who
would salivate at the idea of getting some
"juicy" video showing this type of gun
handling.
Jeff, you know it's not about the truth.
It's about "image" and perception. As more
communities weigh in on the question of
banning gun shows, we certainly don't need
to give them anything negative to work
with.

Regarding accidental discharges at gun
shows; I happened to be conversing with a
total stranger as we were waiting to be
waited on. He shared with me two incidents
of a.d.'s at shows he had attended. They
may not be common, but they are not
unheard of.

Regards,

Sport
 
Personally I'm very disappointed with some of these posts.

I've got to go along 100% with Gunslinger on this one.

------------------
"Lead, follow or get the HELL out of the way."
 
As much as it may be hard to do, we cannot correct every stupidity of man. We had an accident in town a couple days ago. 7 teenagers skipped school one morning for a joy ride. While traveling 75 in a 45 zone they ran into the rear of a Semi. 1 dead, 4 in intensive care, 1 in serious condition and 1 released after treatment. I guess we should sue the parents for leaving the keys to a deadly weapon where kids can find them.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RAE:
Hmm,
Notice from your profile you're from Grafton. The Grafton I remember was 99.99% farming. Looks like city ways and city people may have gobbled up another farm community.
What you describe is pretty much the same as when we used to play farmer in high school over off Rt76 and Rt303. Everybody had a .22 in the garage, and most of the doors were always open.

[This message has been edited by RAE (edited March 14, 2000).][/quote]


You apparently haven't been around here in a while. Currently, the prison population is near that of residents. In the surrounding areas, there is a lot of development going on (i.e., big, upscale homes). With change and development, comes increased crime. If you are suggesting that I have these feelings because of my 'city ways', you are wrong. I am simply being realistic. While it may have been acceptable practice (to leave firearms in open garages) when the area was rural, it isn't really prudent now that it's getting built up. With development (and easier access), comes crime. There was a time that you could leave your house unlocked in most suburbs.... but not anymore.
 
Gunslinger,
Thank you for throwing in a bit of sanity. Call the cops? Come on folks! I was raised in a house where pistols and rifles were readily available and accessable. I knew that if I EVER touched one of them, the firearm would be the least of my worries, as my father would have 'taken me out'. I was also raised shooting, so the curiousity factor just wasn't there. For those of you who suggest calling the cops, child welfare, or HCI, how do you know that this is not the same type of situation.

M. Sally,
I understand your concers, especially if you have children that might be harmed by that rifle. You've taken the time/effor to talk to them, and even gone to the effort to get them a lock-box, that's a good thing. But, have you asked them about what the rules of the house are? Please don't get me wrong, I think it's great that you care. But you don't tell us how old these "youngsters" are, how they are being raised, ect.
While it is bad to hear of the rifle being left un-attended in an open garage, I think claiming that they are endangering their children is just buying into more of the gun control hype.
Best regaurds,
Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill in NM (edited March 14, 2000).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bill in NM:
Gunslinger,
Thank you for throwing in a bit of sanity. Call the cops? Come on folks! I was raised in a house where pistols and rifles were readily available and accessable. I knew that if I EVER touched one of them, the firearm would be the least of my worries, as my father would have 'taken me out'. I was also raised shooting, so the curiousity factor just wasn't there. For those of you who suggest calling the cops, child welfare, or HCI, how do you know that this is not the same type of situation.

M. Sally,
I understand your concers, especially if you have children that might be harmed by that rifle. You've taken the time/effor to talk to them, and even gone to the effort to get them a lock-box, that's a good thing. But, have you asked them about what the rules of the house are? Please don't get me wrong, I think it's great that you care. But you don't tell us how old these "youngsters" are, how they are being raised, ect.
While it is bad to hear of the rifle being left un-attended in an open garage, I think claiming that they are endangering their children is just buying into more of the gun control hype.
Best regaurds,
Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill in NM (edited March 14, 2000).][/quote]

Bill, thanks for the response. I can tell you that the kids in question are 3 1/2 and 1 1/2. They are being taken care of by a stay-at-home mom, and both parents clearly love their kids. You are right that we don't know what the father's intent is as far as inculcating his kids to firearm safety; however, I can tell you that based on discussions that we've (my husband and I) had with him about firearms we don't get a warm fuzzy feeling. (Kinda sense a 'macho' thing going on with him.)

It's terrific that you were brought up the way that you were. Your parents obviously did a great job. Although firearms were not an issue for me when I was growing up, I too knew what stuff was out of bounds (under penalty of a stiff swat). Unfortunately, this is not how a lot of kids these days are being raised.

I assure you that I am not buying into the gun control hype (as was mentioned by both you and another respondent). I can tell you that the rifle is accessible to the kids and that the oldest often plays in the garage for short periods of time unsupervised.

Our motivations in all of this are not evil. We are not trying to infringe upon the rights of our neighbor. I am not succumbing to the anti's brainwashing tactics. We simply care about our neighbors as friends, adore the kids as if they were our own, and want them to remain safe and happy.

I have found some useful responses (and some not so useful). After some consideration, I think the best course of action is to casually educate and communicate as opportunities arise and hope for the best.

************************
Thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts. I was amazed at the diversity of responses on this one topic, and we're all pro-gun, pro-Second Amendment.
 
Glad to read that what at first sounded like a (man, I'm going to take a hit for this) typical woman response to guns (duck) isn't the case. :)
I think the best route to go on this one is exactly what you're doing...friendly, informative, level-headed discussion. In your first post, you use the term "lectured". A lecture will often do more harm than good, as it turns people off and just makes them more stubborn in their position.
Something to consider...you might casually ask if they are members of the NRA. If not, might be worthwhile offering to purchase them a 1 year membership. I've bought several gun-friends a membersihip, and most immediatly become more knowledable and safe.
As an aside, I was shooting my dads .44mag at about age 3 1/2, with him behind me holding it up. Great fun!
Good luck,
Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill in NM (edited March 14, 2000).]
 
Sport, I'll take your word for it - maybe it's a regional thing. In Arizona, if someone is selling a sidearm, they would generally have it in the original case, on the table, or in a soft case. At least a paper bag for heaven's sake. I really don't recall someone just walking around holding a sidearm at their side with their finger on the trigger. If that's the case, I agree - very foolish - it would make me nervous as well.

I note that amateurs / beginners are often more likely to 'paint' others. I was warned early on, when I was first learning, and I was very embarrassed and chagrined at my error. I would agree we need to diplomatically train people, but we can't expect beginners to know all of this stuff as 'common sense'.

I will say that anti-self defense movement types are certainly prone to photograph or videotape this kind of stuff to make life harder for the RKBA. But, you know, if we stayed up late worrying about all the lies they'll tell, the exaggerations they'll draw and the misinformation they will spread, ... well, then we would never sleep. ;)

Bottom line for all of this is simply to have an honest, open conversation with folks that are still learning. Start in a friendly way, and help them - don't chastise them. Leave the police tactics and demonization to the anti-self defense activists - those tactics are more up their alley, IMHO.

Regards from AZ
 
Sally,
Last time I was in Grafton was some 10 years ago. Since you caught the RT 76 comment, and ID'ed it, I can pretty much gauge you own point of reference ie: When Rt 83 was known as Rt 76, Grafton and much of Lorain County was rural. What I'm suggesting is to stop the lectures, and point out to your neighbor, that even though there are cows down the road a bit, Grafton is a city. The days of farm ways are gone, and replaced by streets with woodsy tweedsy names. Elyria and South Lorain are just a drive-by away.

Glad your husband decided not to take the rifle, even as an object lesson, firearm theft is a felony. The failure to report a firearm theft in a timely manner is also a felony. You might want to point out that to the neighbor. Maybe a little mention of possible civil action, where someone uses the rifle in an unsafe manner, and he loses Casa de Crcket Crap lane over it would work.

Re: The prison population:
Back in the late 60's, some friends of mine were making a film for a High School project. 4 of us were on our way back to town after a visit to our friends farm. 2 of us were dressed in blue jeans, and denim(sp) jackets. We stopped on the road, right by the Honor Farm, jumped out of the car, and ran to the front door of the Honor Farm. Friend number 3 grabbed the camera, and filmed us running from the front door, past the sign, and jumping into the car, where friend number 4, the getaway driver, sped off. The 15 second clip was spliced on to the end of the film project, and drew rave reviews ;). Looking back, all I can think is God does indeed protect the stupid.

[This message has been edited by RAE (edited March 15, 2000).]
 
RAE,

Yes indeed, SR 76 was renamed SR 83 back about 20-25 years ago. It has surely been longer than the 15 years we have lived out here! I used to drive 76/83 to I-71 when I was attending Ohio State back in 1976/77. I think that is when the designation changed. That happened because they renamed I-80S (remember that mess?) I-76. To avoid confusion, the state was required to rename SR76 to SR83.

Yes, we live on one of the old country roads, not in Grafton proper. Grafton is a 7-10 minute drive these days. This area is getting too deleloped these past few years. Time to move further out. Anyone have a mountaintop they want to sell?

------------------
Remember, just because you are not paranoid doesn't mean they are not out to get you!
 
One might think the safety police are getting paranoid- There were 142 accidental deaths by firearms for children aged 0-14 in 1997.

Lets compare that with:

car accidents- 1,392
drowning-1,010
fire-737
pedestrian-675
suffocation-659
bicycle-201
poisoning-132
falls- 124

Overall accidental firearms deaths account for 2.4% of accidental deaths for children aged 0-14 in 1997 (the lastest year stats are available- there is a 4 year lag time).

Why is it that when an MVA claims a childs life we do not prosecute the parent, or when a child dies from a toxic injestion, or drowns in a pool, etc........ Most of these deaths can be traced to an error in judgement somewhere I believe- "I only lost track of him/her for a minute", "he/she never goes in there, they know they are not allowed", "I swear the gate was locked/closed". Each time I hear this it is a tragedy. Unfortunatly our societal collective is only forgiving 97.6% of accidental childhood death.

No it is only firearms deaths that are being singled out.

To those that point out safety concerns are your homes in order 100%? Should our pursuit of decreasing accidental deaths impinge that much on personal freedoms? We have lost our ability to gauge risk in our society, thanks in large part to national news coverage of sensational events.

If I were your neighbor I would thank you kindly for your concern and then politely ask you to buzz off. It truly is none of your concern. I guarantee you that if I walked through your house, and you have children, I could tally safety concerns that kill many more than 142 children a year. In fact I'd wager 100$ on it.

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I am tired of the safety Nazi's. Life is dangerous, people die. Take calculated risks, it's your life, the masses do not know what is best for you.

my numbers are from the CDC.
[http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/osp/usmort.htm]

Regards,

Olazul
 
Cougar,
Sure do remember that mess. Course I've been around long enough to remember when 90 dead-ended at 76 in Avon ;). More to the point of the thread. More and more people are going to rural settings to escape the burbs or the city. Lot's of 'em drag the civilized ways with them. Good and bad, but mostly bad where guns are concerned. Pity. Yeah, we had a good time playing farmer, driving the tractors and combine, blowing stumps w/ Nobel :),fixing up cars in the barn on weekends, blowing off a little pent up youth w/3.2 Strohs down at the corners ;). Most of that changed though the day the pigs got fixed. You could tell right away who the farm boys were and who were the weekend players! ;)( Yep, us w/enders could hold our own when it came to carrying feed, but fixen' Porky sure was an eye opener!) Point here is even if you live in the country, it takes a lot more than an address to make you one. Whole different attitude and values I guess.
 
Olazul,

I think you are missing the point. Irresponsible gun ownership is something that should concern each and every one of us. Why should we sit idlely and wait for an accident to happen when a good dose of safety education would be the better solution? I am not advocating a 'turn-in-your-neighbor' Nazi-ism!

I feel the same way about proper use of a firearm (or lack of it to be more precise) every single time I see a shot-up road sign. What sort of image does this portray to the non-gunowning public? We are the ambassadors of the future of our own sport. We should be setting examples for others with courtesy, politeness, and just plain common sense.

If responsible gun owners do not start cleaning up our public image, we will lose this fight. I don't know about you, but I hate to lose!

------------------
Remember, just because you are not paranoid doesn't mean they are not out to get you!
 
Olazul,
Howdy! Long time - no see! ;)
Thanks for the numbers! Kinda keeps the party clean. ;)
-----

All,

Seems to me we have three points to ponder:

1) Leaving a gun in view for non-family members.
- This is stupid. Visible guns attract the attention of curious kids, thieves,
and worse.

2) Leaving a gun unsecured (ie not in a safe or something similar).

We have had firearms ready to use and at hand in my home since we
returned to America (1976). I refuse to leave my wife and/or children
defenseless because other parents can not control themselves or their
children.

Our kids never touched our guns without our supervision but once (see
below) and yes, I *can* prove it.

Our guns were a family “secret” - other people were not told (until I came
to TFL :) ).

Once, when our young teenaged daughter was home alone, she got a
handgun to defend herself from someone she thought may have been *IN*
our home. She took the gun and cordless phone to the pre-designated
place and followed our plan to the letter.

This was NO time to be unarmed or playing with gun safes, etc.

3) Does *anyone* have the right to tell me I must leave my family
defenseless by locking up our guns?
- Nobody here can tell me that my wife can not have a gun at hand.
- As for my kids, nobody here can judge better than my wife and I which of
our children is sufficiently stable, trained, and trustworthy to have access
to, and to defend themselves with, a firearm.
-----

If you desire to leave your family defenseless, that’s your choice and I will
fight for your right to do so. But tend your own flock and fields. My wife
and I will tend ours.

Oh, by the way, our daughters have grown into beautiful young women who
have homes of their own - defended by firearms. I sincerely recommend
you mess with *neither* of them.

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited March 16, 2000).]
 
Olazul,
Howdy! Long time - no see! ;)
Thanks for the numbers! Kinda keeps the party clean. ;)
-----

All,

Seems to me we have three points to ponder:

1) Leaving a gun in view for non-family members.
- This is stupid. Visible guns attract curious kids, thieves, and worse.

2) Leaving a gun unsecured (ie not in a safe or something similar).

We have had firearms ready to use and at hand in my home since we
returned to America (1976). I refuse to leave my wife and/or children
defenseless because other parents can not control themselves or their
children.

Our kids never touched our guns without our supervision but once (see
below) and yes, I *can* prove it.

Our guns were a family “secret” - other people were not told (until I came
to TFL :) ).

Once, when our young teenaged daughter was home alone, she got a
handgun to defend herself from someone she thought may have been *IN*
our home. She took the gun and cordless phone to the pre-designated
place and followed our plan to the letter.

This was NO time to be unarmed or playing with gun safes, etc.

3) Does *anyone* have the right to tell me I must leave my family
defenseless by locking up our guns?
- Nobody here can tell me that my wife can not have a gun at hand.
- As for my kids, nobody here can judge better than my wife and I which of
our children is sufficiently stable, trained, and trustworthy to have access
to, and to defend themselves with, a firearm.
-----

If you desire to leave your family defenseless, that’s your choice and I will
fight for your right to do so. But tend your own flock and fields. My wife
and I will tend ours.

Oh, by the way, our daughters have grown into beautiful young women who
have homes of their own - defended by firearms. I sincerely recommend
you mess with *neither* of them.

------------------
Either you believe in the Second Amendment or you don't.
Stick it to 'em! RKBA!
 
Olazul,
Howdy! Long time - no see! ;)
Thanks for the numbers! Kinda keeps the party clean. ;)
-----

All,

Seems to me we have three points to ponder:

1) Leaving a gun in view for non-family members.
- This is stupid. Visible guns attract curious kids, thieves, and worse.

2) Leaving a gun unsecured (ie not in a safe or something similar).

We have had firearms ready to use and at hand in my home since we
returned to America (1976). I refuse to leave my wife and/or children
defenseless because other parents can not control themselves or their
children.

Our kids never touched our guns without our supervision but once (see
below) and yes, I *can* prove it.

Our guns were a family “secret” - other people were not told (until I came
to TFL :) ).

Once, when our young teenaged daughter was home alone, she got a
handgun to defend herself from someone she thought may have been *IN*
our home. She took the gun and cordless phone to the pre-designated
place and followed our plan to the letter.

This was NO time to be unarmed or playing with gun safes, etc.

3) Does *anyone* have the right to tell me I must leave my family
defenseless by locking up our guns?
- Nobody here can tell me that my wife can not have a gun at hand.
- As for my kids, nobody here can judge better than my wife and I which of
our children is sufficiently stable, trained, and trustworthy to have access
to, and to defend themselves with, a firearm.
-----

If you desire to leave your family defenseless, that’s your choice and I will
fight for your right to do so. But tend your own flock and fields. My wife
and I will tend ours.

Oh, by the way, our daughters have grown into beautiful young women who
have homes of their own - defended by firearms. I sincerely recommend
you mess with *neither* of them.

------------------
Either you believe in the Second Amendment or you don't.
Stick it to 'em! RKBA!
 
Sorry everyone when I read the post it was the straw that broke the camels back. In `the last week or two it seems like I have dealt with more than one irresponsible owner, and it burns me bad. I think that Cougar says it best. We all as responsible gun owners need to police and educate the others. My goal this year is to introduce 1 person a month to guns and shooting. So far I am way ahead of schedule. I also grew up in a house with guns and although my dad was "responsible" and kept them locked up, we new better than to touch them. All I am saying is that society has changed and we must adapt. It is not the "good old days" anymore.
 
Dennis,
Easy big guy. ;)
You bring up a good point about gun ownership and people not knowing about it. In the last 2 weeks, I've "found out" about no less than 3 co-workers that are gun owners. Somewhere between the open advocation and promotion, and the secreting of arms, there lies a common ground. I don't leave guns laying around my desk at work, but there are a number of targets in the drawers, a 2nd amendment primer on the desk (kinda neat, it looks a bit like a Bible cause it's leather bound and classy looking) and an assortment of outdoor oriented stuff like calenders and notices of upcoming sportsmans shows. However, it wasn't until the spring rains made me wear my duster, that I got comments about looking like a Cowboy. That led to my explaining that I bought the duster because 1.)I got a good price on it. 2.) I was interested in getting into CAS.
The blunt approach seldom has real staying power. Something the other side has known for a long time.

Sally,
If you're still reading this, how about getting an Eddie Eagle video? Pass it around the neighborhood. If you talk to Mr. Macho like he's a kid, how effective ya think that is? OTOH, if 4 or 5, 7 year olds point out to him the unsafe condition,,,,,

[This message has been edited by RAE (edited March 16, 2000).]
 
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