Iraqi Federal Constitution: Interesting

[shootinstudent]

Blackmind,

The answer is: In third world, under-developed or oppressive Arab dictatorships, people are treated badly. Just like in Asian dictatorships and south American dictatorships. Religion is used, as it has been in Christian dictatorships, to justify those regimes and their practices.

If you're willing to look, there are mountains of information out there about the Islamic world. Most of it is ASIAN, ie, Indonesian, Malaysian, Thai, Chinese, and Singaporean. Have you ever heard of a Singaporean terrorist attack, even though something like 20 percent of the country is Muslim and living under non-Muslim rule? I don't think you'll find too much to object to there, in comparison to the abuses against women and minorities that happen in the more severely depressed Arab states in North Africa.

And even in the middle east, some places are westernized and socially liberal. Lebanon and Turkey are two great examples. The wahhabists have not been well received in those places, and the people have modern attitudes about rights and behavior. You might be interested by the fact that wahhabism, the radical branch of Islam that's breeding terrorists today, was founded as an anti-Turkish movement....not as an anti-Christian one.

Just like with Christianity, the culture, government, and economy of each individual Muslim state are what you should be looking at, instead of painting the entire billion people as psychos based on two or three news clippings from nowhereville Pakistan.

What you are doing is tantamount to judging all of Christendom based on El Salvador, or based on the Inquisitions and witch hunts of the past.

 

[Rebar]

Most of it is ASIAN, ie, Indonesian, Malaysian, Thai, Chinese, and Singaporean.

Situbondo, East Java. Muslim Rioters Burn 25 Churches, 2 Christian Schools and an Orphanage in Seven Cities. Pastor Ishak Christian and Family Burned to Death.

http://reformednet.org/refnet/martyr/indonesia/961010/

Persecution of Christians in Ambon, Indonesia

http://www.rim.org/muslim/indonesia.htm

CATHOLIC CHURCHES ATTACKED IN MALAYSIA

http://www.christiansoldiers.org/Pers011018-2.html

Just because it's not widely reported, doesn't mean it's not happening.

Islam is a profoundly anti-Western ideology that has no tolerance for other faiths or philosophies. Anyone reading the plain meaning of the koran can see it clearly:
http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/browse.html
I encourage everyone to take the time to read it, instead of taking the word of those who would sugar-coat it's real meaning.

 

[shootinstudent]

Rebar,

You posted all missionary websites. Those conflicts have less to do with Islam and everything to do with the conflict between native malays and the ruling governments, which are often of different linguistic and cultural groups. That is what is happening in Northern Malaysia and Southern Thailand, where the religious practice is more traditional Malay than it is Islamic. Usually, you don't find that out without going there because

A) Your missionary websites don't report that

and

B) Western papers aren't that interested in it.

I just got back from a month and a half in SE Asia. Muslims everywhere, living just like everyone else. Intermarriage happens there too...more than I've ever seen it in the US. If you don't believe me, take a trip...it's dirt cheap with the exchange, and there's plenty to see!


Edited to add:

Since you posted an online Koran, I'll give you one of my favorite lines from Abdullah Yusuf Ali's english translation (which is, from what I'm told, one of the best):

Sura II, verse 256:

256. Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

 

[tyme]

First two chapters in indented, readable form:
http://www.thefiringline.com/library/iraqi_const_draft.html

 

[Rebar]

shootinstudent:

To say it's all sweetness and light between Asian muslems and other religions, is clearly incorrect. From the Philippines to the Indian sub-continent, there have been plenty of muslem attacks and atrocities, just that they don't get reported here. My wife is a Filipina, and she tells about the monstrous Abu Sayyaf terrorists, am I to believe your story over hers?

As for quoting the koran, you don't want to go there, you will lose:

When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them.
Q 9:5

 

[Gary H]

Political correctness aside, there is something very wrong within the Islamic world. The something wrong can only be repaired by the followers and not from outside. Christianity had similar problems in the far distant past (Balkans ignored). The fervent will push Iraq towards a fundamentalist theocracy. The constitution is a piece of paper. I'm not sure that it is sufficient to prevent civil war. Ultimately, all peoples get the government that they deserve. I did use the word "all".

 

[migrantmigraine]

"An Iraqi may have more than one nationality as long as the nationality is not Israeli."
ROFL! "You are now entering the Republic of Iraq: No Joooos allowed"

 

[3 weelin geezer]

Ok, so what if you don't want to claim you are Iraqi? And you are a jew? What if you say you are Iranian but walk like an Egyptian? Um....well I guess thats ok. Carry on citizen. As far as all these 'damned' holy writings/books/scrolls/tablets etc. are concerned, there will always be people to say 'But it is written in... that...you must do what I say because look it says here....'. Not everyone who believes in Islam is evil. You just got suckered by the news paper boy.

 

[shootinstudent]

My wife is a Filipina, and she tells about the monstrous Abu Sayyaf terrorists, am I to believe your story over hers?

My SO is Pakistani. I think she knows a thing or two about her religion. The Abu Sayyaf are indeed cruel rebels, and the government of the Phillipines is most certainly equally brutal in many ways. The fight is not about religion, and never has been. They have a problem in the South there that is similar to the problem in Southern Thailand...different ethnicities, with very different cultures, that don't want to be subjected to their rulers to the North.

Like I said...show me a Singaporean suicide bomber. If believing in Islam is causing these problems alone, why aren't the large minority groups of Muslims in Singapore rising up daily against their secular rulers?

As for quoting the Koran....I'm quite certain I know it well enough. The verse you quoted from Sura IX is an example, like in the old testament, of an imperial command. Read S IX.6, it's literaly the next paragraph.

Oh, I'll quote it, IX.6 that is:

If one amongst the Pagans Ask thee for asylum, Grant it to him, So that he may hear the Word of God; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.

 

[wayneinFL]

Just as I don't think our founders envisioned the law letting baby rapers and murderers off in the face of new technology ,that they could not have imagined, that is discovered and utillized after the trial is over

Imagine how many rapists and murderers have been let back on the streets because of presumed innocence. Would you throw out the whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing?

joab, I agree it's scary to let a murderer go when you have new evidence that could have convicted him.

I'm disgusted that those convicted can make appeal after appeal, year after year, when it is clear they did it.

However, the worst injustice would be if the gov't had an appeal process in which you could never be set free. Where the gov't had an unlimited right to try you over and over until a jury finally convicted you of something you didn't do. Or until you died.

If you think the Iraqi legislature will pass laws to control the gov't power in bringing up a double jeopardy case you might be right. But if the constitution is interpreted differently in future generations, that could all change.

I mean, at inception, the 2nd amendment applied to the people like all the rest of the bill of rights. Of course, nowadays we all know the right to bear arms applies only to the government. And having a gun in a school zone affects interstate commerce.

 

[butch50]

I mean, at inception, the 2nd amendment applied to the people like all the rest of the bill of rights.

Small correction - it did not apply to negroes.