IRA Arms

Ok some people want my views so I'll try and make this my last post on the subject.
Yes the protestant majority did treat the Cathlocis badly and diascriminate aginst them in a lot of ways -
but the situation is far from the British murdering thousands of poor defensive Irisihmen - if they were why did the IRA wait up until
the troubles begain in the to start carrying out serious violence ?
The fact is that Northen Ireland is democratic and by far the majority of the people want to remain as part of Britain - the IRA just
won't accept that fact. If the majority want to be part of Ireland then so be it but you can force a minorty view onto everyone in Northen Ireland.
Anyone who gives the slightest bit of credibility to the IRA or protestant terrorist groups UVF UDF UDA is wrong. Bombing civilian
targets are acts of cowards, and so is ambushing soldiers or bombing army barracks.
Wether all of the British soldiers are completely perfect or not is irrelevant - %99 of the soldiers would have done no wrong. Would you agree that it's ok for Serbs in Kosovo who dislike what has happened to hide a bomb beside a road and blow up some poor American soldier who was simply doing his duty and has no vies on the conflict ?
Calling
themself an army is a joke. They are cowards through and through.

I'm sick and tired of the Irish and anyone with the slightest connection to Ireland complaining about the British, while I'm at it the Scots (and that historically inaccurate movie Braveheart) as well. The Scots regularly murdered each other and fought each other (eg the campbells massacre of the Glenns).
Every nation on the earth was the same. They would invade and rule each other if they could. It just happens that the British were larger and stronger than the others and they won out. I'm sick of these selective views of history viewing one nation as somehow nicer than others. Human nature is the same everywhere.

AS a matter of record my ancestors came from England, Ireland and Scotland, although I admit all were protestants.
 
The guns are not the problem, except in the tiny minds of anti-gun fanatics like the UK "government". The IRA should just be allowed to keep the guns.

If the two sides make a real peace, there will be no need for guns and they will not be used. If one side insists on keeping its guns and insists that the other side disarm, there can be no real peace.

Americans are used to a nation where even diverse factions generally get along without violence and where the police are usually a neutral force preventing violence by all sides.

When the police and the military are on one side, fully intend to keep their arms and to see that their side's partisans remain armed, it is not too surprising that the other side should wish to retain its guns as well.

If my friend has a gun, I do not care. If my enemy has a gun, I want one, too.

Jim
 
I'm with Jim 100%. It's always the actions that are the problem, not the tools. Hell, I have more weapons than the IRA in my basement. No, wait...that was last lifetime. ;)
 
Hi to all concerned,

Please read the real (not the movie) history of the Irish wars, the Scottish wars, and the Irish plantations. Don't forget Oliver Cromwell, who is a demon to the Irish and a hero to the English, even though he destroyed almost as much of the English heritage as he did the Irish.

Understanding how things got this way won't solve any problems, but it will at least show that the idea of a moral struggle of good vs. bad is simplistic at best and completely self-defeating at worst.

Jim
 
Let’s take a hypothetical situation.

Let’s say honesty and entrepreneurship break out in Mexico and they become a world power. At the same time, our Socialist American government stifles us into third world status.

Suddenly Mexico invades and conquers the U.S.

Millions of Mexicans (citizens of Mexico) flood into the U.S. and, joining with the Hispanics already here, vote their numerical majority. The U.S. becomes a democracy controlled by Hispanics.

If you don’t have an Hispanic surname and speak Spanish “properly” you can’t get a job, your kids are beat up going to and from school, the teachers and school administrators treat your kids like dirt, and store owners and your neighbors treat your wives like whores.

You are not allowed to have weapons. You can not get redress from the government. You are forced out of any job that pays more than $6/hr and you lose your homes and can’t feed your families.

Naturally, following the British example, YOU would keep a stiff upper lip and say, “Good show! Democracy at work.”

Really? Is this the route you would take when you already said here on TFL that you would fight for the American way of life?

Calmly and rationally, explain to me how you would fight back.

Voting? The influx of Mexican immigrants, combined with the Hispanics already here negate ANY effect you have at the ballot box.

Ask the Government for redress? Sure, you go to Mr. Hernandez to complain about Hispanic chauvinism. If that’s your tactic, just tell President Clinton not to listen to Sarah Brady any more - I’m sure he’ll “feel your pain” and mend his ways.

And when the Hispanics parade the Mexican banners through our cities and towns, all Anglos would celebrate the Hispanic domination, right? Or would you do something stupid and shameful and fight back?

If so, some of you would be killed. Then, at the funeral, when “loyal” Hispanics shoot into the group of men, women and children, you would say your kids deserved to be shot for NOT being Hispanic, Right?

Would you hate the foreigners who shot your family? No, not you. You would be good and true to the “democracy”, right?

You would never snipe at the poor Mexican occupational troops because they might call you a nasty name like “terrorist”.

You would never strike back at the Hispanic populace with the ONLY tools at your disposal would you? Just because that was the only means you had to fight the enemy, gain attention to your cause, or simply fight out of hate. Oh, no? You wouldn’t do any of that because they might call you a name, like “terrorist”.

Horse feathers. There would be non-Hispanics fighting back just like some Irish are fighting back.

Are they wrong? Would you be wrong?

How many elderly, women, children, and other non-combatants have Americans killed during our non-declared wars? How many AMERICANS
has our own government maimed or killed illegally? Doesn’t that have a tinge of terrorism to it? Oh, I forgot, we were fighting FOR something - like freedom and equality of the individual! That’s much different than the Irish fighting for freedom and equality isn’t it?

Then, when Irish zealots get killed and the British or loyal Orange men strike back to “teach them a lesson”, it simply creates more hate on both sides.

So far, some things I believe we can agree on:

1) There are terrorist acts on both the sides of the Irish debate. But when terrorist acts are institutionalized, they are accepted as “necessary policy”. That’s a point we (as gun owners) better never forget.

2) The Irish problem is not really about religion, Protestant v. Catholic. Both religions abhor the discrimination and violence.

3) Condemning the English OR the Irish simply prolongs the terrorism on both sides.

4) In Ireland, just as in the former Yugoslavia, there are good and kind people of reason on both sides who are friends with each other. They realize that discrimination and violence only beget more discrimination and violence.
These are the heroes we should emulate - not those killing each other out of historical, hateful inertia.

5) Until the people from both sides sit down and discuss this in good faith, there will be no solution. Until these two groups can set aside their historical hate, can set aside their “gotta get even” mentality, Northern Ireland will resemble the Balkans.

6) If the American government succeeds in disarming us, I’ll guarantee you that there will be *some* Americans who bomb government “targets” - and that will include government “Loyalists”. Remember, any civilians who fight a government (with force) will be called “freedom fighters” or “terrorists” - depending on who’s doing the name-calling.

7) When the day comes WE can not discuss such a problem and, if necessary, agree to disagree agreeably, then we are little better than the terrorists on both sides of that war in Ireland.

------------------------

You know, guys, some thirty years ago a Russian asked me why Americans
wanted to kill him and his family. I told him, “We don’t want to kill ANYbody. But your government is trying to take over the world.”

He laughed and replied, “The world? That’s a joke! They can’t even control themselves!”

It was a real eye-opener for me. That was when I really, really understood what Jefferson meant, “A government, ANY government, is at best a necessary evil.”

------------------------------

I don’t care who has guns in America. I would prefer that we ALL had guns that were relatively equal in capability. Then we could prosecute those who abused gun ownership - well, at least the bad guys who survived! ;)

But to say only the government and its representatives can have firearms is wrong. That’s a police state. Citizens are thusly reduced to “subjects”, “pawns” and “slaves”.

And it WILL happen here if we continue to split our Second Amendment vote because of abortion, religion, school vouchers, hate for one of the major political parties, or some other issue other than the RKBA.

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited July 24, 1999).]
 
Dennis,

Your Mexican analogy has its points, but it doesn't reflect the historic situation in Ireland. Again, try to find (if possible) an unbiased history and read how the English determined to kill two birds with one stone, so to speak.

Jim
 
Ok one thing we can all agree on the English were mongrels the Irish were mongrels and even the Scottish were mongrels.(hmm can't explain the use of the word mongrel here ask HS or Bruce)
Religion does have a lot to do with it and it goes back hundreds of years. Just like in the Balkans all sides have their faults and hatreds that go back along time and won't be forgotten soon.
You can't just forget what happened in the past that easily.
I think everyone agrees Oliver Cromwell was a mongrel - thats why they got rid of him in the end.
Pretty sure my ancestors that came from Ireland would have been part of the plantations. :)

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New FREE Gun Auctions at http://www.gun-center.com/auctions.html
 
Dennis,

You hit the proverbial nail on the head.

I am Irish, I am a McFarland, my father is from Ireland. I know my family's history about 600 years, and I have strong views about the Brittish in Ireland.

The Brittish need to get the f#ck out of there.

If our patriot forefathers had semetex and AK-47s in 1776, they would have used them.

IRISH TILL' I DIE!


Balming
 
Gee, and I wanted this to be about illegal modern weapon procurement/use by small committed 'forces' in a time of heavy regulation. Not which brand of terrorism you prefer :( . Could we close this Admin??

[This message has been edited by Prichard (edited July 25, 1999).]
 
One last point to think about. Watching an Irish docuentary tonight on tv they said the majority of Irish that went to America were Scottish/Irish protestants and that the sterotype of the Irish American was largely created by the minority. Also that the number of people that migrated due to the potato famine is highly exaggerated and most came before or after.
It was good to see un unbiased view of Irish history for once - and strangely by the Irish themselves.
It had other interesting stuff too.
 
I was trying to stay in the middle of the road here, fellas. We have better things to do than to fight about overseas battles and whose "unbiased" report is more accurate than the other guys'.

So far, "unbiased" seems to mean "supports my view".

My point on my earlier thread was not to give a definitive history of Europe! I was trying to show that when a majority group (whether it's English or Republocrats) disenfranchises a less powerful group (whether it's Irish or gun owners), the small group must either give up or fight.

Not having a standard army, the small group has NO choice but to resort to what the majority call "terrorism".

Now, I will guarantee all of you this! If our government tries to make the ownership of firearms illegal, there will be resistance. If that resistance involves force, it WILL be called terrorism.

Jeez, guys, I'm an American, specifically bred and born in the United States of America. There, is that politically correct enough for all concerned?

My ancestors, on BOTH sides of my family came from Ireland. They were Irish. They were not Scots, Swedes, Flemish or Chinese! They were Catholic. They were not Protestants, Buddhists, Shinto, or those goofy guys you see at airports.

And it doesn't make a damn one way or the other! I'm a gun owner! I am an American!

If you want both those titles to pertain to you then you had better unite with other gun-owning Americans and support our RKBA!

Support FOUP! Hell, I lost half my business because I became a Concealed Handgun Instructor! At my income level, half my business is food on the table!

Now here is my line in the sand, ala Travis!

If you want to be an American gun owner, step across this line! If you are more concerned with the Irish potato famine, abortion, feminism, or who shot cock Robin then simply say that RKBA is of a secondary nature in your grand scheme of things!

But, please remember, if you lose your right to control the government, the government WILL control YOU! And your "primary" concerns become irrelevant because the government will tell you what you think and will tell you what you are going to do and when and where you are going to do it.

Unite! Or become as Australia, Japan, Canada, and England!
 
Rabbit Assassin,

Just to clue you in on something.

If you see a film about America - and it's produced by Handgun Control, Inc., it isn't factual even though it's produced by so-called Americans.

Dennis M. Bateman
O'Connor clan
 
The documentary was unbiased not because I agreed with some of it - I didn't agree or disagree - they just presented facts without taking sides.
Like someone mentioned before read about the history of Ireland and it may help. Thats what this program did. It certainly changed the the view I had about Irish Americans. Unfortunately I've never seen a debate on guns done fairly yet.
 
Rabbit Assassin,
Thanks for your calm reply to an unnecessarily vitriolic post. I've been fed and watered now, and my computer (which crashed twice this morning) is again working as close to "properly" is it will get.

Without a doubt a lengthy study of European history (stressing the British Isles) would do my mind and my rhetoric good. OTOH, I am so upset with my own government at the moment I doubt that I could study without prejudice. Also, my studies are now slanting toward the appropriate, effective, and efficient application of military science. (Ain't goin' no further with THAT one! ;) )

Our discussion of Irish/Irish-American history is as secondary to the future of Americans' RKBA as are arguments concerning other social issues (which I am even afraid to enumerate!). Therefore, I'll apologize for my hasty and nasty comments, thank you for your calm reply, and then I'll exit stage right (never to the left! ;) ).

To all the U.S. people here:
We better soon unite and get our RKBA act together. As our friends in Australia have warned us, governments will seize total power over us if we permit it to happen.

Once that happens, our views on other subjects will be irrelevant. The government will control our information, our thoughts, and our actions.

Support the return to Constitutional rule. That is the only route to solving our other social problems in a fair and equitable manner.
 
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