IPSC gun choices ->

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edamon2k

New member
I'm starting to shoot IPSC this weekend (hopefully, not sure I can make it, otherwise middle of may).

Anyhow, I'm going to shoot production class for a bit with my sig, to get used to the competition.

However, it seems the 1911 style guns have a real advantage (SA), so the next handgun is going to be one.

I'm looking at the Kimber Target II, how does this fair in accuracy,etc compared to say a colt gold cup. I'm not looking to build a custom rig, so think "under $1200" so the price range for any other suggestions.

Thanks.
 
However, it seems the 1911 style guns have a real advantage (SA), so the next handgun is going to be one.
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Not necessarily, it would be if you shot in either the Limited or Limited 10 division. However, the 1911 is not legal in Production division and in Production, which is for DA only guns and does not recognize , a Sig would not compete against a 1911.

Seems most people outside the sport don't really grasp this concept but in a USPSA/IPSC match, you only compete against others in the same equipment division. Even though you may actually shoot with Open, Limited, L10, Production, and Revolver shooters on the same squad, no combined results are generated. Instead, there are as many as 5 separate sets of match results produced, one for each division.

That said, any Sig should be fine for a beginnner competing in Production Division. If you do decide you want a 1911 (a noble goal in its own right!) I recommend an STI Trojan instead of the Kimber. I have a couple STIs and a couple Kimbers and the STIs are better guns in terms of fit, finish, and the general quality of parts and materials. I haven't had any reliability problems with any of them so that doesn't seem to be an issue in either case.

www.stiguns.com
 
Since I've never been to an idpa event or know someone who has, could someone tell us what some of the more common handguns that people use in the Stock Service Pistol class and the Enhanced Service Pistol Division. Thanks in advance.
 
meat,
IDPA SSP - Glock, Glock, Glock, Beretta, Sig-Sauer, H&K, "other."
IDPA ESP - Originally brought out the IPSC obsolete single stack iron sight .38 Supers; take off the comp and go. Some BHPs and CZs. Now the 9mm 1911 seems to be first choice. Modified Glocks are doing well.
 
Since I've never been to an idpa event or...
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Talk about thread drift...

You know, if you'd post your question in it's own topic, you'd probably get more and better answers than dumping it in on a thread relatively unrelated to your questions.

This topic is: IPSC gun choices which is not IDPA.
 
At local matches, you will probably do much better, comparatively, with your SIG than you would with a 1911. The reason being that most of the hot shoes are shooting 1911's. While your personal scores will probably be better with a 1911, in Limited or L10, you will finish better in the standings shooting your SIG in Production.
 
if you've never shot the game before, and don't shoot your sig much, don't get discouraged when you finish near the bottom.

Yes, you are shooting against other "production" division shooters, but you more than likely see a combined results. All clubs in my Section generate them. They are meaningless, but people want them to see how they stack up against everyone else. Where you shooting?

Keep in mind in Production you're scored in what is known as Minor, so you get less points for anything other than an A hit. So take your time and get those A hits. Don't try to go as fast as those who've been doing this for yrs.

If you're going to go to Limited eventually, I'd never go with a $1200 1911 Kimber. If you're going to be over a thousand, you may as well go up to the STI, and SVI's. But I think you're still paying far more than you need to.

The Para Ord's seem to be the best gun for the dollars. They are hundreds cheaper, and the "Limited" series incorporate just about everything you'd have to have done to a gold cup by a gun smith.

JOIN uspsa, get access to the members only page, and look at the prices of the used guns there. People are always getting new toys and looking to dump their old ones. Some people think they will get what they put into the gun, others are a lot more sensible in their prices.

You can't buy ability, but you can buy better tools.
 
The Para Ord's seem to be the best gun for the dollars.
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Been there, done that.

Para quality is pretty spotty. I had one and a bunch of guys I shoot with either have or had them. Seems about 1 in 4 is great, 1 in 4 is a total piece of junk, and the other two work most of the time.

The only reason I can see to shoot a Para is to get in Limited inexpensively. Unfortunately I've seen too many people dump a lot of money in a new Para to get it running and keep it running.
My experience I think a shooter is better off getting a good single stack (Springfield, Kimber, STI) ,and shoot in Limited 10 until you can afford a good high-cap Limited gun which pretty much means an STI, SV, or custom-built based on one of those frames.

Regardless of any of that, you should shoot your Sig for at least 6 or more matches. In your first couple matches your biggest concern will be not DQing for a safety infraction. That alone overwhelms most people for the first 2 or 3 matches. After that, you'll start learning the basics of the game - there's far more to it than just shooting. It will probably take you several matches until you can really start thinking about being even in D and C class.

mattjoe may have offered the best advice; join the USPSA right away. You can do it online at: www.uspsa.org
 
Kbear- would you agree that a likely reason for the Para's you see not functioning all the time have to do with people not reloading correctly?
Its amazing the number of guns, and the amount of money put into them that I see malfunction week after week.
The constant in those malfunctions are the shooters. They buy something new, it still doesn't always work.
Gun? or Ammo? My feeling is it is the guy reloading his ammo and not doing it right. I've been there, done that way back when I was convinced I could reload to the right overall length or width by just comparing the finished round with a round given to me by someone else. And i do mean comparing them by eye sight, not with dial calipers which I didn't want to spend the $20 on.

Eventually I set everything up right, tightened it all down, measured, remeasured, tested, and now nothing goes wrong. Just like a car, guns aren't hard to keep running. Put the right stuff in them, get the recoil spring changed when it needs to be, Keep the extractor tightened, and keep the gun oiled. You should have no problem.

and JOIN USPSA.
Hurry- the rates are about to increase. You can do it online, and begin putting PENDING down as your member number, that way it wont take as long for you to start having classifiers count towards your class.
 
I don't see how a 1911 is THAT much more of an advantage over a 9mm with a nice pair of sights and a nice trigger.

While 1911s are good to go out of the box as target guns, they are hit or miss with reliability, and I would get it worked on for reliability.

My Beretta is a good combat gun out of the box, but I got it worked on to change the sight picture and got a nice clean light short trigger.

I think the equipment race matters for the top guys, but first year or two, I don't think you will be severly handicapped by shooting a GOOD production gun (Glock, Sig, HK, Beretta) instead of a 1911.

The SA pistols will give you a quarter-second edge when drawing and shooting, which is important for something like steel challenge, but with IPSC's long stages and multiple reloads, mag changes every 10 rounds instead of 8 rounds will even it out, IMO.

Just my opinion of course. Production guns are only disadvantaged because of being scored minor, but with the new division, it's a moot point. I like the idea of shooting production guns anyway, it's more fun, FOR ME, but everyone else enjoys their Paras, too.
 
Kbear- would you agree that a likely reason for the Para's you see not functioning all the time have to do with people not reloading correctly?
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Nope. Bad quality control plain and simple. Paras are notorious for sights literally falling off because the fit is so bad. Some 'smiths will not even consider a trigger job without replacing the entire trigger group. Frames are VERY soft though that's likely one reason they do tend to take a lot of rounds without cracking. Barrels range from fair to crummy. Frames are noted for being cast with blow holes that make checkering problematic. A good friend of mine had to get a sear custom drilled because the frame holes are off so much.

Bottom line though, is Para sells enough guns that it's not a problem for them. A Para is an okay gun for casual use but my observations are that they can get expensive to drive for a serious competitive shooter. That's not to say nobody is successful with them, that's clearly not the case, but probably 20-30% will take significant rework even for moderate competive shooting - say 600-800 rounds a month. For the typical owner, they are generally fine.

It's been my experience that mags are by far the biggest cause of most reliability problems, especially with high-caps. I had some conversations with a couple firearms engineers and the dynamics of what goes on in the mag is pretty complex. Effectively, the whole recoil system has to be designed to hold the slide back long enough for the mag to push the next round up and hold it at the right place for the slide to pick it up and get it to the chamber. It's pretty interesting listening to someone who really understands everything that's going on talk about it.

Anyway, back to the original point, if I was starting over, knowing what I know now after 7 or 8 years of shooting limited (with a Para...) then open, I'd buy a good single stack 1911 and shoot Limited 10. If I had a Glock or a Beretta, I'd shoot production for a year then get a good single stack and shoot Limited 10. After two years of that, and learning how to reload, THEN I'd get a good high cap gun and shoot Open or Limited. MY opinion. That and $.02 is worth exactly $.02.
 
I don't see how a 1911 is THAT much more of an advantage over a 9mm with a nice pair of sights and a nice trigger.
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Never shot a really good open or limited gun, have you?
Can you get a DA gun with a .10" stroke, 1.5# trigger? :p

Tell you what, our club generally runs 160-180 round 8 stage monthly matches with everything from targets you can touch with the muzzle to stuff out 25 (and 50 yd standards once in while...) yards including movers and steel. You shoot the match with your Beretta then do it again with an EGW 38 Super open gun. :D

The other reason 1911s are so popular is because they can take a huge number of rounds without breaking. The 1911 is a very robust frame. STI, SV, and Caspian frames and slides often go over 100,00 rounds of major PF ammo without much more maintenance thans springs. Few other guns have held up for those kind kind of numbers and are able to do it shooting 2" groups and 50yds with that 1.5# trigger

While 1911s are good to go out of the box as target guns
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There is a difference between a target gun and one that's truely competition ready and I think more than anything, that means long term reliability.

I'm not baiting you or anything Skunkabilly... What's your IPSC experience?
 
I'm not baiting you or anything Skunkabilly... What's your IPSC experience?
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Not much. I shot about a half dozen USPSA matches. There is an IPSC-STYLE match the next day...not USPSA affiliated, but pretty much the same rules. The IPSC guys in my area are friggin insanely good and I think if I gave them rusty poles and you gave me a racegun, they may still nail me :) The match I normally go to is some of the same people, but much more laid back.

I am going to start up my ISPC and go hard core tomorrow actually. I was going to last week, but needed to take car of some car issues. Hoping to go every weekend, but dont think that's possible until June.

1911s really have the edge when it comes to Limited, at least the really high capacity ones. I answered the way I did because it was my impression the original poster was looking for a single-stack 1911-style .45, not a 16 Para .40, which would have been a different story, IMO.

Of course, that's why I tacked IMO as a disclaimer--my opinion follows, but much more knowledgable people feel free to jump in and stick my foot in mouth :D Too much rambling for me. I go now :)
 
The IPSC guys in my area are friggin insanely good and I think if I gave them rusty poles and you gave me a racegun,
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Well, you have already discovered the one great truth of IPSC - it ain't the gun, it's the shooter.

Of course, that means I can't buy myself into an M card with a really good gun.

1911s really have the edge when it comes to Limited, at least the really high capacity ones.
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Probably 95% of the guns used in Limited and Limited 10 are 1911s. In Open.... geeze... I think the last time I saw anything BUT a 1911 in Open had to be 4 or 5 years ago when some people were still shooting P9s.

Limited 10 is bringing out a lot of 1911 single stacks though ultimately, a highly tuned STI double stack is still the hottest setup because there's just no getting around that a double stack is easier to reload than a single stack -- unless you're perfect every time of course! Then there's no advantage.

It's unclear what's going to dominate in Production. There are some moderately tuned Berettas, Sigs, and Glocks some of the Ms and GMs are shooting but beyond a match barrel, a trigger job, and decent sights, there's not much you can do and stay Production legal. Of course, there's David Sevigny who's cleaning up with a near stock Glock.

I answered the way I did because it was my impression the original poster was looking for a single-stack 1911-style .45, not a 16 Para .40,
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Yes, that was the original question. The Para crept in somewhere along the thread.

I think the original poster was unclear about the different equipment divisions. Without taking that into account, you can't compare a Sig to a 1911 for IPSC.
 
kbear- thats interesting that you have that problem out there. Of my close friends who shoot paras, (6 of us), 3 of us had our 38supers built by the same person, mine is the only stainless one, and none of us have ever broken a thing. The button on my C-More blew off once, but thats the only problem any of us have ever had. Mine is the only one that is still shot every weekend, gets at least 1000 a month through it during the spring/summer/fall, and gets cleaned once or twice in that time. Generally before the Area 7 match or the Aware, and of course, The Nationals, if i have the money to travel and it is located somewhere other than Barry.

I really feel they are great guns, and know of no one who has a problem with theirs. That's surely not saying there arent problems with them out there. What you mentioned sounded a lot like problems with Entreprise Arms, which I heard of from a friend who shot for them until he couldn't stand their product anymore and had to leave.

If i had to do it again? I'm tempted to say I'd get another Para 38super, but would more than likely get a gun from Sandy Strayer, he just seems to put the most back into the sport. He seems to sponsor everything, and whenever USPSA wants something, he is there giving it to them. Add on his efforts to get his guns approved for sale in MA and CA, despite the fact that its pretty much not even a break even business decision, he does it for the shooters, and that sure is a good guy in my book.
 
btw Kbear- your club must RULE!
8 stage 180-160 round stages??!
UNREAL. We are lucky to break 100 sometimes.
and about 2 years ago I traveled to a match in NY about 3 hours from me, and was greeted with a 48, yes, FORTY EIGHT, round match.
 
kbear38S -

Thanks for the heads up. I'd actually never heard of STI. I've not been a big fan of the 1911 (no reason, I just took to the sig/hk look from the get go). However, in looking at the SA advantage the 1911 style guns suddenly got put on the "next gun list". The STI looks great.

It would seem in the production class (which is good to know the 1911's aren't allowed in) the glocks have a 1 shot advantage - since they've got the constant 4# pull. I wonder if it's worth picking up that CZ-75 that SA only, unless that shoves me into another class. It's all fun and games the first few matches then the competitive devil sets in, lol. I might hold off on the 1911, since you make a good point on that where all the ringers prolly compete. Are hi-cap mags allowed? I've got two for the sig (wish I had some more, a pita to come apon here in CA).


MattJoe -

I've not yet competed, but I do shoot a lot (~1000 rounds a month) and been doing some practicing along the lines of the events described on the local uspca site. I'm pretty accurate , however, I'm sure I'll still lose out to the one legged blind guy in my division, haha. Problem is all of my shooting has been restricted to a "lane" at a range. Change in enviroment will have an effect, I'm sure.

thanks guys.

-d
 
SAD TRUTH

So there's these 70+ shooters competing, and this guy with a Glock shooting PRODUCTION! (ten rds, no mods, scored Minor) beats every single person (some of whom are pretty friggin good).

And then the next month he does it again............

Not the gun, or the magazines, or stuff; it really is the shooter.

Shoot your gun, and enjoy it.
 
3 of us had our 38supers built by the same person, mine is the only stainless one, and none of us have ever broken a thing.
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I suppose I should be more clear about that. I'm talking off the shelf factory guns. Para work great when you throw away everything but the slide and frame and put in the good parts! :D

Seriously, I don't know if they improved or not but about the time they came out with the Limited model, they were pretty bad. About 6 or 8 guys bought them all at the same time 2 or 3 had serious problems, a couple ran flawlessly, and the rest had only minor problems. Basically though, we saw 20-30% that were just junk. One new gun was back to Para twice and ending having a thorough going over by a competent 'smith before the guy could finish a 100 round match with it.
 
Most of the IPSC guys here run Paras, but I've made this observation before:

I think Para saves all their substandard parts over the course of the week and assembles them into complete guns on Friday afternoon. Nowadays they don't seem to turn out any more bad guns than anyone else, but their bad guns are completely bad, no half measures; when they screw one up, it's really screwed up. ;)
 
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