Investigating a noise:

OldMarksman said:
Was the idea that one might fire at something he cannot see?
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First of all, it is worth noting that the person clearing has the exact same light conditions as the BG. Second of all, you can wait to turn on a flashlight (highly recommended for clearing a house) until you are near the guy. Even a weak flashlight shine in the face in a dark environment can be very disorientating. Also, do you have no natural night vision? Again, I would like to stress that you are in the same light conditions as the BG. I was just making the point that you don't have to flash your lights or slam doors when you clear a house. There is a big difference between that and shooting blind or not IDing your target. Also, you should be able to tell about where the BG is based on the noise he made/is making (remember that that is the noise that you are in the process of investigating). You are not clumsily wandering around your house hollering around and slamming doors and flashing lights (sounds like the activity of a drunk man :D). If you can't tell where the BG is based on noise, wait until you can before you move, although that time may not be available if you are trying to get to your kids. Listen outside a room for a moment before you enter, while watching to make sure he's not sneaking up on you (I don't know, I think that this is fairly basic stuff). I'm not saying that anybody should clear their house when they hear a noise, and I certainly wouldn't, I'm just saying that people with children would have an obligation to clear some of their house (the area between their room and their children's room) in order to get the whole family in one room where it can be easily defended. Just trying to say that it is not impossible, though it is highly risky, to clear rooms for those who have an obligation to.
 
BuckHammer said:
...the person clearing has the exact same light conditions as the BG....
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Yes, but you care who you're shooting at more than the BG does.

BuckHammer said:
...you can wait to turn on a flashlight (highly recommended for clearing a house) until you are near the guy....
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If you know; but since you're looking for him, he can wait for you so he'll probably see you first.

BuckHammer said:
...Also, you should be able to tell about where the BG is based on the noise he made/is making...
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But you'll be making more noise. You're moving through the house looking for him. But once he notices that you're probably coming after him, now he stays put in a defensible position.

BuckHammer said:
...You are not clumsily wandering around your house hollering around and slamming doors and flashing lights...
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But you're still moving and will be making some noise. See Pax's post.

BuckHammer said:
...people with children would have an obligation to clear some of their house (the area between their room and their children's room) in order to get the whole family in one room where it can be easily defended....
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Absolutely, although I'm not sure much "clearing" is involved. It may depend on the layout of the house. It might be a good idea, if at all possible, to assign sleeping quarter so that in an emergency it would be possible to round up the kids (and guests) quickly without having to travel much through the house. It's also a good idea to have noe or more emergency plans the whole family is familiiar with.
 
From PAX: But we've been circling into "is not!" "is TOO!" territory for awhile now. Probably getting close to time to close the thread. Thoughts?

Some merit to that. But the next parry provided the opportunity for a constructive reply by Fiddletown. Best points, IMHO, being (1) "but you care who you're shooting at more than the BG does" and (2) "once he notices that you're probably coming after him, now he stays put in a defensible position."

Value of continuing? you be the judge.

I'm not sure the ideas are getting across.
 
Gee whiz gang, I step away for a while and we've gone from going outside to check a noise to "clearing the house" indoors.

Since I've had to do this whilst living alone I'll throw my 3-cents worth into the pot. First and most important...

No matter what you do, nothing will go quite to plan.

The townhome I live in has a door to the garage that connects to the house via the short hall to the master bath (I didn't design the damn thing). One night in the wee hours (so called because that's when you need to wee the most) I heard something fall inside the garage. :eek: I rolled over in bed, in my BVD's with my machismo running on high, reached over, wrapped my hand around the 1911 and as I move to get out of bed, I realize that my left arm, which I'd been sleeping on, is entirely numb. So much for an icosolese stance. Off balance, with the numb arm, I fling my legs out of bed and.... slammed the 2nd toe of my left foot into the square edge of a chair leg next to the bed! #&%$!!

So now, I'm awake. I suck air, bite my lip and hobble two steps to realize... I'm nearly blind. I can't open my right eyelid because it's stuck to the bottom one. Quickly wipe my eye and I can see. I can see well enough to see both cats curled up on the opposite foot of the bed looking at me like "What the heck are you doin?" I hobble to the door and listen and realize that I'm listening to my heart beating like Gene Krupa playing Sing Sing Sing on his drums. After a couple of slow deep breaths to calm myself, I listen again to... nothing.

Just as I half convince myself I imagined the whole thing and reach for the door knob I hear a small thump and the sound of an empty soda can tipping over on the floor. Mentally I exclaim "Ah-ha! I know exactly where that is! I left that can next to the toolbox!" I turn the door knob, fling the door wide open and snap on the lightswitch to the garage.

Now... I wanted my voice to sound like a mixture of John Wayne and Ward Bond when I shouted "Don't Move! Who's out there?" Instead, what came out sounded more like a frightened Don Knotts going through puberty. Even I wasn't impressed. Fortunately, after about four seconds of scanning the garage two things became apparent. First (and most importantly) the source of the noise became apparent as my 3rd cat timidly stuck his head around the corner of the toolbox and blurted out a questioning "Prrrrilll?" Second was that in my effort to assume a good crouching stance, something was hanging out of my very non-tactical BVD's.

Had this been a real alert, I figure that any bad guy would have dropped to the floor in a fit of hysterical laughter at a wide-eyed, pudgy old guy who resembles Wilford Brimley wearing white boxers with "Mr. Happy" swinging in the breeze and holding a gun.

The moral of this lesson is...
Think before you act. Do not rush into a confrontation before you are ready. If it's a strange noise outside, use every means at your disposal to identify it without going outside. Your goal is to identify if there really is something worth reporting to 9-1-1, not to apprehend someone.
 
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From BillCA:
Your goal is to identify if there really is something worth reporting to 9-1-1, not to apprehend someone.
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Excellent advice!

I might add that your two other goals are to avoid getting shot and to avoid shooting the wrong person.

I know from experience the unusual effects of stress in such a situation. Decades ago I heard a violent interchange downstairs. I picked up a Smith Model 39 and went downstairs. From a hidden position, I could see a man kicking a woman on the floor. He than knocked my mother down. That eliminated the threat of a hostage situation and I confronted the man. I ordered him out the front door, threatening to "perforate" him. I did not recognize my own voice!

Turns out the man had been in the woman's car, and she stopped and came to our house for help, entering through an unlocked door.
 
OldMarksman said:
I might add that your two other goals are to avoid getting shot and to avoid shooting the wrong person.

I know from experience the unusual effects of stress in such a situation. Decades ago I heard a violent interchange downstairs. I picked up a Smith Model 39 and went downstairs. From a hidden position, I could see a man kicking a woman on the floor. He than knocked my mother down. That eliminated the threat of a hostage situation and I confronted the man. I ordered him out the front door, threatening to "perforate" him. I did not recognize my own voice!

Turns out the man had been in the woman's car, and she stopped and came to our house for help, entering through an unlocked door.
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Good thing you didn't just sit tight.
 
From Buckhammer:
Good thing you didn't just sit tight
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Humor, I suppose, or do I miss your point?

You have undoubtedly noted that I was not "clearing a house," nor was I "investigating a noise." I knew that there was a fight going on and that at least my mother was endangered. I went to her aid. I knew that the intruder was occupied with violence and not with looking out for an approaching homeowner. Fortunately he was alone.

I have related what happened. Whether I did the wise thing I do not know, but based on what I saw when I got there and on the outcome, I think so. I did not think I had a reasonable choice.

But if someone or something is making noise in the house, and if the family is secure, I do have a choice, and the wise one is to not venture forth into a situation in which I am likely to be ambushed.

See the point?
 
I do have a choice
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That's the key, IMO. Goes back to "there are noises and then there are NOISES" sort of thing. Recognizing the noise as "a family member in trouble" is very different from "what was that thump outside?" Each suggests a different choice as the preferred response.
 
Gee whiz gang, I step away for a while and we've gone from going outside to check a noise to "clearing the house" indoors.

Since I've had to do this whilst living alone I'll throw my 3-cents worth into the pot. First and most important...

No matter what you do, nothing will go quite to plan.

The townhome I live in has a door to the garage that connects to the house via the short hall to the master bath (I didn't design the damn thing). One night in the wee hours (so called because that's when you need to wee the most) I heard something fall inside the garage. I rolled over in bed, in my BVD's with my machismo running on high, reached over, wrapped my hand around the 1911 and as I move to get out of bed, I realize that my left arm, which I'd been sleeping on, is entirely numb. So much for an icosolese stance. Off balance, with the numb arm, I fling my legs out of bed and.... slammed the 2nd toe of my left foot into the square edge of a chair leg next to the bed! #&%$!!

So now, I'm awake. I suck air, bite my lip and hobble two steps to realize... I'm nearly blind. I can't open my right eyelid because it's stuck to the bottom one. Quickly wipe my eye and I can see. I can see well enough to see both cats curled up on the opposite foot of the bed looking at me like "What the heck are you doin?" I hobble to the door and listen and realize that I'm listening to my heart beating like Gene Krupa playing Sing Sing Sing on his drums. After a couple of slow deep breaths to calm myself, I listen again to... nothing.

Just as I half convince myself I imagined the whole thing and reach for the door knob I hear a small thump and the sound of an empty soda can tipping over on the floor. Mentally I exclaim "Ah-ha! I know exactly where that is! I left that can next to the toolbox!" I turn the door knob, fling the door wide open and snap on the lightswitch to the garage.

Now... I wanted my voice to sound like a mixture of John Wayne and Ward Bond when I shouted "Don't Move! Who's out there?" Instead, what came out sounded more like a frightened Don Knotts going through puberty. Even I wasn't impressed. Fortunately, after about four seconds of scanning the garage two things became apparent. First (and most importantly) the source of the noise became apparent as my 3rd cat timidly stuck his head around the corner of the toolbox and blurted out a questioning "Prrrrilll?" Second was that in my effort to assume a good crouching stance, something was hanging out of my very non-tactical BVD's.

Had this been a real alert, I figure that any bad guy would have dropped to the floor in a fit of hysterical laughter at a wide-eyed, pudgy old guy who resembles Wilford Brimley wearing white boxers with "Mr. Happy" swinging in the breeze and holding a gun.

The moral of this lesson is...
Think before you act. Do not rush into a confrontation before you are ready. If it's a strange noise outside, use every means at your disposal to identify it without going outside. Your goal is to identify if there really is something worth reporting to 9-1-1, not to apprehend someone.
__________________
BillCA in CA (Unfortunately)
Editorial Advisor - Handgun Club of America
http://www.handgunclub.com
For American's handgun enthuisasts.
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BillCA, that was the best post I have ever read in a forum, period!
 
David Armstrong said:
That's the key, IMO. Goes back to "there are noises and then there are NOISES" sort of thing. Recognizing the noise as "a family member in trouble" is very different from "what was that thump outside?" Each suggests a different choice as the preferred response.
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That's hitting the nail on the head. And it addresses my much earlier comment about "one size fits all" responses to the issue of hearing noises.

Type 1 noises are things like breaking doors or glass, family members in trouble, voices of strangers close by, argumentative voices, etc. These are generally "obvious trouble" noises.

Type 2 noises are those that may be someone stealing from your property or trying to get in. They indicate something unusual. The sound of a car door closing, the clank of a wrench or tool, a window squeaking, etc. Yet these same noises may be "innocent" noises made by a neighbor or some other legitimate reason (such as a an animal snooping by the tool shed).

Type 3 noises are those that you generally dismiss unless they repeat or have some unusual quality. House creaks, branches scraping a window on a windy night, a small thumping noise accompained by the sound of the cat's bell, all of these you normally ignore.

It is those Type-2 noises we check out before calling 911. They could have innocent origins, such as your neighbors coming home late at night. We are all glad when our fears are unfounded when it is something "normal". None of us wants to waste the time of our police. Nor call them without checking and later listen to a neighbor describe how they were proned out on their own wet grass in their finest evening wear after returning from the Opera. :o
 
BillCA said:
It is those Type-2 noises we check out before calling 911. They could have innocent origins, such as your neighbors coming home late at night....
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It may come down to how sure you are that it's something innocent. Because that still takes us back to the fundamental reality that it it's not something innocent, and if the BG is willing to engage you, you are at a substantial disadvantage and will probably come to harm.

It's your call.
 
From Fiddletown:
It may come down to how sure you are that it's something innocent. Because that still takes us back to the fundamental reality that it it's not something innocent, and if the BG is willing to engage you, you are at a substantial disadvantage and will probably come to harm.
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Yes indeed! The extent to which I will "check out" a noise that may indicate that someone may be stealing from my property, for example, does not include anything that would put me at risk.

I don't see any reasonable approach other than listening further, without exposing myself to risk. The primary risk is that of being ambushed, of course, but if one's concept of checking something out involves going forth with a firearm, other key risks involve shooting an innocent person or being charged with a gun crime. All for the sake of property.

None of the foregoing would be to my liking.

I speak as a civilian. A policeman within his own jurisdiction would have different obligations and indemnities and frankly, would be better trained. The extent of any action he might take without calling for help? Perhaps an LEO might care to comment.
 
Perhaps an LEO might care to comment.
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I'm retired, but you might note that it is usually the LEOs and former LEOs that are the most adamant about not going out to check the noise or clear the house. That should tell you something.
 
I'm retired, but you might note that it is usually the LEOs and former LEOs that are the most adamant about not going out to check the noise or clear the house. That should tell you something.
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Of course there's a downside to this too. If people call without attempting to verify the noise is legitimate (neighbor taking out his trash for instance) then we tie up a lot of police resources on bad calls. Simply peeking outside may give us enough information to return to bed and not call the PD. If it can't be identified and really did sound like a prowler/thief, then by all means call the Gendarmes.

Another downside is the "Cry Wolf" syndrome. It's often associated with the elderly. Here in the SFBA when I was studying LE in college, a local agency had an elderly woman named Giselle who would usually call once or twice a week hearing "prowlers" around her place. Typically the noise would come from an gate she forgot to secure, the wind knocking garbage can lids off, cats mating/fighting, a broken branch of some bush rubbing a wall or window. that sort of thing. The police were nice to her because she was a widow, in her 80's and carried a number tattooed on her forearm.

But you've guessed the downside, haven't you? One night a veteran officer got the call, drove by and saw nothing. He parked two houses away and on foot checked the house out. His backup was another 30 seconds away when he frantically radioed "Code 30! Shots fired! I've been shot!" His career ended that night with a .45 Colt round shattering his collarbone and lodging in his left shoulder socket. The 19 year old perp tried to get his Python but got the officer's fingers in his eyes and fled. Fortunately a responding unit caught him, still holding the Ruger SA and he gave it up without a fight. When it was over, there were 26 police units from 4 different agencies in front of the house. The officer had let his guard down entering the back yard, expecting a cat, dog or some other simple explanation. Only this time it was a real intruder.
 
From BillCA:
If people call without attempting to verify the noise is legitimate (neighbor taking out his trash for instance) then we tie up a lot of police resources on bad calls.
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I'm afraid I don't understand why one would feel the need to call the police simply because he did not know a noise to be "legitimate." I would not call unless there were a pretty compelling indication that there was a need, and I doubt they would dispatch anyone on a priority basis unless I could articulate same.

Simply peeking outside may give us enough information to return to bed and not call the PD.
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I'll peek and I'll listen, and I'll go back to bed. But if I have heard a noise and I just don't know what it was, I don't see why I should worry about calling the police, and I don't think it worth spending any detective effort. There was a guy out back building a deck at all hours for about a year and a half with all kinds of banging and slamming; all kinds of sounds occur the night before trash day. Car doors open and shut at any hour. All of these things get the dog barking, and I peek and I listen, but unless something continues that indicates an intrusion, I simply ignore them.
 
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