Investigating a noise:
- Thread starter SoldiersSon
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Moderator Note
Some folks seem to have gotten the idea that it's okay to insult someone else on TFL -- to call them cowards or spineless, to impugn their manhood or their manners.
This is not so.
Those who cannot discuss a subject without maligning the folks who disagree with them about it should avoid posting in threads discussing that subject.
pax
Some folks seem to have gotten the idea that it's okay to insult someone else on TFL -- to call them cowards or spineless, to impugn their manhood or their manners.
This is not so.
Those who cannot discuss a subject without maligning the folks who disagree with them about it should avoid posting in threads discussing that subject.
pax
David Armstrong
Moderator
LOL! You're turning into quite a comedian. That one might even top the "deflated weiner syndrome".
Huntergirl
New member
Investigating noises. That's my 100lb lab-neufie's job. He does it well. I'm the backup.
Frank Ettin
Administrator
What I've been taught in the various classes I've taken, and what I teach as an NRA certified instructor, based on the NRA syllabus, is that if you hear a noise --
[1] You investigate as best you can from a place of safety inside the house with your family. You wait and quietly listen. Does the sound repeat? Can you begin to identify it? Can you positively identify it as something innocuous? If the sound is clearly from outside, you may look out nearby windows.
[2] If you can't identify the sound and believe there is a danger, you assure that your family and any known visitors are all together and with you in a place of safety. You arm yourself. You call the police. You maintain telephone contact with the police. And you wait.
[3] You do not go anywhere to investigate, because --
Massad Ayoob tells a story about the National Tactical Invitational, an annual competition in which some 130 of the top shooters and firearm trainers participate by invitation only. One of the events is a force-on-force exercise using simunitions in which the competitor must clear a house against a single "BG." According to Mas, during the first seven of these annual events, not a single competitor "survived" the exercise. The tactical advantage of the ensconced adversary is just too great. And remember, these competitors were highly skilled, highly trained fighters.
[1] You investigate as best you can from a place of safety inside the house with your family. You wait and quietly listen. Does the sound repeat? Can you begin to identify it? Can you positively identify it as something innocuous? If the sound is clearly from outside, you may look out nearby windows.
[2] If you can't identify the sound and believe there is a danger, you assure that your family and any known visitors are all together and with you in a place of safety. You arm yourself. You call the police. You maintain telephone contact with the police. And you wait.
[3] You do not go anywhere to investigate, because --
(a) If you go looking, and there is indeed a BG there, you will be at an extreme tactical disadvantage. You can easily be ambushed or flanked. You may also have given a BG access to family members to use as hostages. Or there maybe more than one.
(b) When (whether you called them or they were called by a neighbor who may have also seen or heard something) the police respond, they don't know who you are. You are just someone with a weapon.
And here we have an example of what can happen if you go out to investigate. The BG was outnumbered. The BG brought a knife to a gunfight. The BG was on unfamiliar territory. But the BG also had a significant tactical advantage and won the fight.
Massad Ayoob tells a story about the National Tactical Invitational, an annual competition in which some 130 of the top shooters and firearm trainers participate by invitation only. One of the events is a force-on-force exercise using simunitions in which the competitor must clear a house against a single "BG." According to Mas, during the first seven of these annual events, not a single competitor "survived" the exercise. The tactical advantage of the ensconced adversary is just too great. And remember, these competitors were highly skilled, highly trained fighters.
Sigma 40 Blaster
New member
I gotta go with the majority. If you hear something outside, try to see what it is FROM SAFETY. I am assuming you and yours are in the house safe or FAR away (meaning your daughter or wife isn't on their way home from somewhere when you hear these mysterious noises outside).
If you don't see anything stay alert, if you do see something call the police, make sure anyone in the house is safe and STAYS put. You put yourself in a safe defensive position and get ready to stand your ground if need be.
If you don't see anything stay alert, if you do see something call the police, make sure anyone in the house is safe and STAYS put. You put yourself in a safe defensive position and get ready to stand your ground if need be.
I'm going to say that the one size fits all solutions don't always work for everyone. There are situations, locations and circumstances that don't fit neatly with the "call the cops" advice nor the "stop 'em at gunpoint" mentality. I'll give a couple of examples.
I live in a townhome complex. Since my truck is too tall to fit in the garage, it's parked on the street at night. But my townhome sits back off the street, down a walkway about 50 ft. There have been a rash of thefts recently of catalytic converters from vehicles (fortunately not here yet). Last week when I was still up at 3:30am I heard odd noises like a power tool. By the time I opened the front door the noises had stopped. Almost gave up until I heard a tool clank, then I investigated further. Walked out to the street cautiously (checked my truck first) then spotted an open hood on a truck about 60ft away. Easily ID'd my neighbor replacing the battery in his truck so he could go to work.
A friend has a modest (4200 sq ft) house in Missouri on 200+ acres. The house has, essentially 3 stories, a veranda round half the house and a detached garage/workshop. At night, a perimeter alarm system protects the house and garage. If the garage alarm is tripped it beeps inside the house and after 2 minutes rings a loud bell by the garage. If the house perimeter is breached, the alarm sounds like a collision between a submarine and a cruiser with horns and klaxons. Most late night noises can be attributed to deer or loose dogs roaming at night. One night he heard rapid footsteps outside the house. He dismissed it as being deer. A few minutes later an IR beam alarm beeped in his bedroom indicating movement on the veranda deck. Visual inspection from inside showed nothing. A moment later he heard footsteps outside but saw flashlight beams at the corner of the house. Since deer never use flashlights, he hit the "all exterior lights" code and watched a pair of teens set a 50-yard-dash record for the nearest treeline.
The police? In his location, a sharp turn about 1/4 mile away has a serious accident every four or five months. Average response time - Code 3 - is 17 minutes. The response time to his wife's call of "prowlers" around their house had the deputies arriving 49 minutes after the call was made.
I live in a townhome complex. Since my truck is too tall to fit in the garage, it's parked on the street at night. But my townhome sits back off the street, down a walkway about 50 ft. There have been a rash of thefts recently of catalytic converters from vehicles (fortunately not here yet). Last week when I was still up at 3:30am I heard odd noises like a power tool. By the time I opened the front door the noises had stopped. Almost gave up until I heard a tool clank, then I investigated further. Walked out to the street cautiously (checked my truck first) then spotted an open hood on a truck about 60ft away. Easily ID'd my neighbor replacing the battery in his truck so he could go to work.
A friend has a modest (4200 sq ft) house in Missouri on 200+ acres. The house has, essentially 3 stories, a veranda round half the house and a detached garage/workshop. At night, a perimeter alarm system protects the house and garage. If the garage alarm is tripped it beeps inside the house and after 2 minutes rings a loud bell by the garage. If the house perimeter is breached, the alarm sounds like a collision between a submarine and a cruiser with horns and klaxons. Most late night noises can be attributed to deer or loose dogs roaming at night. One night he heard rapid footsteps outside the house. He dismissed it as being deer. A few minutes later an IR beam alarm beeped in his bedroom indicating movement on the veranda deck. Visual inspection from inside showed nothing. A moment later he heard footsteps outside but saw flashlight beams at the corner of the house. Since deer never use flashlights, he hit the "all exterior lights" code and watched a pair of teens set a 50-yard-dash record for the nearest treeline.
The police? In his location, a sharp turn about 1/4 mile away has a serious accident every four or five months. Average response time - Code 3 - is 17 minutes. The response time to his wife's call of "prowlers" around their house had the deputies arriving 49 minutes after the call was made.
Frank Ettin
Administrator
Bill,
[1] In your case, you ventured out and there was no BG, so all was well. What if there was a BG who heard you coming and was able to attack you from ambush? Would you have been able to effectively defend yourself?
[2] In your friend's case, he had previously rigged his property to minimize any need to go out looking, and in fact didn't go out looking
I generally agree with the "one size doesn't fit all" approach. But in these sorts of situations, no matter what you may do, you must run smack into a Major Truth: if you go looking and there is in fact a BG, he has a tremendous tactical advantage and the likelihood of your getting hammered is substantial -- you will most likely lose.
[1] In your case, you ventured out and there was no BG, so all was well. What if there was a BG who heard you coming and was able to attack you from ambush? Would you have been able to effectively defend yourself?
[2] In your friend's case, he had previously rigged his property to minimize any need to go out looking, and in fact didn't go out looking
I generally agree with the "one size doesn't fit all" approach. But in these sorts of situations, no matter what you may do, you must run smack into a Major Truth: if you go looking and there is in fact a BG, he has a tremendous tactical advantage and the likelihood of your getting hammered is substantial -- you will most likely lose.
Fiddletown:
In response to your reply;
[1] No BG, but that "unusual noise" was present. Rather than calling our local PD, spending 2 minutes on the phone describing the situation (before they dispatch), the 45 second delay (at least) before dispatching and their average 9 minute response (dispatch to arrival) I decided to look first. Had it been a BG, (a)it's doubtful they would have heard me coming, (b) I did approach the area cautiously and (c) my 3" .45 wheelgun would have evened the odds considerably. I thought I had a BG when seeing the hood open, but my neighbor's build is easily ID'd even at night.
[2] While he didn't go outside on this incident, he has had to do so on others. Missouri has a terrible meth problem and lots of property theft from yards. If it ain't nailed down, they'll find a way to take it. When his garage alarm beeped one night, circled wide around the garage with his Glock. He found a young couple trying to load an old Pontiac engine block someone else had dumped on his land. He would have interrupted them, but they were saving him the effort of recycling it. Once they got it into the truck, he let 'em leave and reported it. Kids picked up the next day at the recycler nearby.
For the most part, I agree that one should call the PD once it has been established that there is a strange noise outside. This works mostly for suburban and urban areas. But where you can't see common areas (as in my case) I think it's prudent to at least try to look/listen before calling the PD. In rural areas with long response times, reliance on the PD to provide any real assistance or deterrence isn't prudent.
In response to your reply;
[1] No BG, but that "unusual noise" was present. Rather than calling our local PD, spending 2 minutes on the phone describing the situation (before they dispatch), the 45 second delay (at least) before dispatching and their average 9 minute response (dispatch to arrival) I decided to look first. Had it been a BG, (a)it's doubtful they would have heard me coming, (b) I did approach the area cautiously and (c) my 3" .45 wheelgun would have evened the odds considerably. I thought I had a BG when seeing the hood open, but my neighbor's build is easily ID'd even at night.
[2] While he didn't go outside on this incident, he has had to do so on others. Missouri has a terrible meth problem and lots of property theft from yards. If it ain't nailed down, they'll find a way to take it. When his garage alarm beeped one night, circled wide around the garage with his Glock. He found a young couple trying to load an old Pontiac engine block someone else had dumped on his land. He would have interrupted them, but they were saving him the effort of recycling it. Once they got it into the truck, he let 'em leave and reported it. Kids picked up the next day at the recycler nearby.
For the most part, I agree that one should call the PD once it has been established that there is a strange noise outside. This works mostly for suburban and urban areas. But where you can't see common areas (as in my case) I think it's prudent to at least try to look/listen before calling the PD. In rural areas with long response times, reliance on the PD to provide any real assistance or deterrence isn't prudent.
OldMarksman
Staff
From BillCA:
I live in a suburb, but I've often wondered what I would do differently if if I lived on a farm miles from the nearest municipality.
When I was young I used to visit relatives on farms, but there were no meth producers around and I don't remember any difficulties. One uncle kept a Model 1911 under his pillow, and I don't remember whether the other one had anything at hand. Looking back, I'm really amazed that I didn't see a shotgun.
There remains the question of what to do. I do think there may well be a case to be made for a different approach when you are out in the country and really on your own due to the long police response time.
Having said that, I still believe that in town, the only wise thing to do is to follow Keltyke's advice posted at 11:46 AM.
I live in a suburb, but I've often wondered what I would do differently if if I lived on a farm miles from the nearest municipality.
When I was young I used to visit relatives on farms, but there were no meth producers around and I don't remember any difficulties. One uncle kept a Model 1911 under his pillow, and I don't remember whether the other one had anything at hand. Looking back, I'm really amazed that I didn't see a shotgun.
There remains the question of what to do. I do think there may well be a case to be made for a different approach when you are out in the country and really on your own due to the long police response time.
Having said that, I still believe that in town, the only wise thing to do is to follow Keltyke's advice posted at 11:46 AM.
It occurs to me that one reason this type of thread gets so heated is because people really want very simple answers to incredibly complex questions.
It's really tempting to haul out the "never" and "always" hammers, or stoop to impugning others' motives, because that's a lot easier than really listening to someone else's points, or than carefully enumerating your own reasons for preferring the solution you prefer.
And when it comes to scenario-type questions, most of us tend to visualize our own houses and our own neighborhoods, forgetting that other people's circumstances -- and thus the scenario they're picturing -- may be very different from our own.
Just musing, appropos of nothing much.
pax
It's really tempting to haul out the "never" and "always" hammers, or stoop to impugning others' motives, because that's a lot easier than really listening to someone else's points, or than carefully enumerating your own reasons for preferring the solution you prefer.
And when it comes to scenario-type questions, most of us tend to visualize our own houses and our own neighborhoods, forgetting that other people's circumstances -- and thus the scenario they're picturing -- may be very different from our own.
Just musing, appropos of nothing much.
pax
computerguysd
New member
I've got a pretty good view of my property from my bedroom window. My property is insured.
LEGALLY, if I start wandering around to figure out what has my dogs, or my driveway alarm go off, while the law says I can protect property, I would still face 12 people that don't know how to get our of jury duty, if I go "looking for trouble".
911 in my area can be over an hour away, or more. That said, I've got a good defensive area in my house/bedroom.
If a BG, or BGs. are IN MY HOUSE, I have the right to shoot to kill. Old solid walls, great tactical location if BGs approach my "safe zone".
Hopefully, 911 responds, if they don't, they've been alerted and I have a planned defense of the home.
LEGALLY, if I start wandering around to figure out what has my dogs, or my driveway alarm go off, while the law says I can protect property, I would still face 12 people that don't know how to get our of jury duty, if I go "looking for trouble".
911 in my area can be over an hour away, or more. That said, I've got a good defensive area in my house/bedroom.
If a BG, or BGs. are IN MY HOUSE, I have the right to shoot to kill. Old solid walls, great tactical location if BGs approach my "safe zone".
Hopefully, 911 responds, if they don't, they've been alerted and I have a planned defense of the home.
scriverdog
New member
this thread has given me a lot to think about.
I don't have any expertise to add but I'm posting because I'm really bugged. I will admit up front that my reaction to the dialogue is emotional. I have my flame suit on so fire away and tell me where I'm wrong.
I chose to own firearms to avoid having my family victimized. we each may define that in different ways. admittedly, if everyone survives a break-in, that is the best that can be hoped for.
however, allowing an individual or individuals to break into my home while I hide in my bedroom feels too much like being victimized to me. there is no way police will arrive to catch the BG. so while I'm hiding in my bedroom waiting for Mr. Bad Guy to take what he wants, he will be free to victimize another family tomorrow night. NO, I don't have anything worth dying for. but once someone breaks into my home, a conflict I didn't ask for has begun, like it or not.
the bad guys reading this forum now understand that the prevailing wisdom from those with the experience here is to avoid the confrontation. if they can break in knowing they are unlikely to be confronted in an occupied home, we may as well leave the doors unlocked because it'll be open season on home owners.
my point is, I don't need firearms to hide in my bedroom with my wife. it seems to me that what keeps us safe is the bad guy not knowing what he is walking into. yes, I understand that the crack head, actually anyone willing to enter an occupied home isn't thinking rationally.
I want to make it clear that I am a novice and certainly no hero. I'm not looking for a gun fight and I'm not itching to shoot anyone. but once an individual enters my home uninvited, prevailing wisdom aside,I will have no heistation drawing down and firing on the individual(s). Right or wrong, the way I see it, if I don't, tomorrow night it could be your home. And I'll have to live with wondering if I could have done something that might have prevented that.
I have Mr. Ayoob's books on my nightstand right next to my pistol and shotgun. I have more work to do to fortify my home, to train and to plan for the day I hope doesn't come. I will do more to educate myself and to prepare. But it seems to me that when we lose the will to stand up to crime, the BGs win and the liberals may as well come take my guns.
I don't have any expertise to add but I'm posting because I'm really bugged. I will admit up front that my reaction to the dialogue is emotional. I have my flame suit on so fire away and tell me where I'm wrong.
I chose to own firearms to avoid having my family victimized. we each may define that in different ways. admittedly, if everyone survives a break-in, that is the best that can be hoped for.
however, allowing an individual or individuals to break into my home while I hide in my bedroom feels too much like being victimized to me. there is no way police will arrive to catch the BG. so while I'm hiding in my bedroom waiting for Mr. Bad Guy to take what he wants, he will be free to victimize another family tomorrow night. NO, I don't have anything worth dying for. but once someone breaks into my home, a conflict I didn't ask for has begun, like it or not.
the bad guys reading this forum now understand that the prevailing wisdom from those with the experience here is to avoid the confrontation. if they can break in knowing they are unlikely to be confronted in an occupied home, we may as well leave the doors unlocked because it'll be open season on home owners.
my point is, I don't need firearms to hide in my bedroom with my wife. it seems to me that what keeps us safe is the bad guy not knowing what he is walking into. yes, I understand that the crack head, actually anyone willing to enter an occupied home isn't thinking rationally.
I want to make it clear that I am a novice and certainly no hero. I'm not looking for a gun fight and I'm not itching to shoot anyone. but once an individual enters my home uninvited, prevailing wisdom aside,I will have no heistation drawing down and firing on the individual(s). Right or wrong, the way I see it, if I don't, tomorrow night it could be your home. And I'll have to live with wondering if I could have done something that might have prevented that.
I have Mr. Ayoob's books on my nightstand right next to my pistol and shotgun. I have more work to do to fortify my home, to train and to plan for the day I hope doesn't come. I will do more to educate myself and to prepare. But it seems to me that when we lose the will to stand up to crime, the BGs win and the liberals may as well come take my guns.
Double Naught Spy
New member
Wow, you can get 911 there in about 12 minutes for a non-priority call? Y'all are doing quite well. Many major PDs are thrilled to be under 8-10 minutes for a call where somebody is being beaten with a hammer whilst on the phone with 911.
I don't know now many police departments routinely spend much time on "unusual noise" calls. That is so low down for a busy PD that if an officer showed up within an hour that would be good...if they ever showed up at all (not dispatched).
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
Given the one size fits all problem, I have an idea.
If you think that you might need to go outside and search - get some friends with airsoft guns. Have one of two of them be outside noise makers and wait for you outside when you go to search. Their job is to either be obvious outside or hide (as if they heard you come out).
You need to find them, engage, retreat or whatever seems reasonable.
Same for them - flee from you, engage you - whatever.
That might give you something to think about when you say you will do XYZ.
If you think that you might need to go outside and search - get some friends with airsoft guns. Have one of two of them be outside noise makers and wait for you outside when you go to search. Their job is to either be obvious outside or hide (as if they heard you come out).
You need to find them, engage, retreat or whatever seems reasonable.
Same for them - flee from you, engage you - whatever.
That might give you something to think about when you say you will do XYZ.
OldMarksman
Staff
Form Glenn E. Meyer:
And become aware of the law in you area!
Leaving the dwelling or car means that you are not operating under castle laws ("occupied dwelling or automobile").
In many locations, one cannot walk around outside unless the gun is concealed. That's true where I live in a densely populated area in Missouri.
And if there's an outdoor confrontation, in many areas (including mine) your first obligation is to avoid engagement. So why go outside in the first place? (I know, in Texas after 30 minutes after sun-down...).
None of this is intended to take away from Glenn's suggestion, which would no doubt prove quite illuminating.
And become aware of the law in you area!
Leaving the dwelling or car means that you are not operating under castle laws ("occupied dwelling or automobile").
In many locations, one cannot walk around outside unless the gun is concealed. That's true where I live in a densely populated area in Missouri.
And if there's an outdoor confrontation, in many areas (including mine) your first obligation is to avoid engagement. So why go outside in the first place? (I know, in Texas after 30 minutes after sun-down...).
None of this is intended to take away from Glenn's suggestion, which would no doubt prove quite illuminating.
Frank Ettin
Administrator
Glenn, that's an excellent idea and should work inside the house too for anyone who wants to get an idea of what house clearing can be like. And if someone doesn't want to go to such lengths, just think about how many times you've gone looking for your spouse or a kid and had him (or her) blindside you from a direction you never expected?
It is a simple fact of life, and there's no getting around it, no matter how well armed you may be, if you go looking, whoever you may be looking for has a substantial tactical advantage. The only way to even the odds is with force of numbers, and that is why when properly done house clearing is a team activity.
It is a simple fact of life, and there's no getting around it, no matter how well armed you may be, if you go looking, whoever you may be looking for has a substantial tactical advantage. The only way to even the odds is with force of numbers, and that is why when properly done house clearing is a team activity.
David Armstrong
Moderator
But what if they did hear you coming, and they also had a 3" .45 wheelgun?
Has he had to do so, or has he chosen to do so? Basic questionn I always ask. "Is it worth getting killed over?" As long as they are outside, there is rarely any real need to go out and track them down. Usually they will run away with light and noise. If light and noise doesn't run them off, do you really want to go out and find out why these folks are bold enough not to be bothered by the lights and noise?
Double Naught Spy
New member
David, do you drive? Is it really worth getting killed over? Come on.