Into the house of the enemy...

Ok Dennis I didn't want to wait any longer or you to post.


Monday morning Dennis and I ventured to a MMM planning session. I've been leading an all out assualt on the local MMM web page via a few pro-gun boards on the net. After 2200 gun owners cast their vote on the web survey and the board became very pro-gun, I was contacted and asked to attend a meeting. I contacted Dennis and asked him to go with me. It was eye opening to say the least. I don't know if we accomplished much in the way of changing their minds, but I think we did change their perspective of the gun culture. We where both commended for our civil attitude and respect for others in the meeting.

I'll leave my comments on the meeting as this. We went, we talked, we discussed, we stayed civil, we didn't enter the gun rights issue, we pushed safety, we asked them to help us implement gun safety classes in local schools, we listened to their stories, we commented, We had them invite us to be part of their march we didn't answer that one yet, we left, and hopefully as they plan this march they will think about what we said.

Dennis what do you have to say about all this...


Steve
 
For just a moment, let’s remember something about the NRA.

Within the NRA are strict Constitutionalists who believe ALL attempts at gun
control are unconstitutional. We also have those who believe compromises
are in order - for reasons of “common sense”, to achieve more important
goals, or whatever.

And it is similar with the Million Mom March people.

At the national level, we have such radicals as Rosie O’Donnell. Here in San
Antonio however, is a local group who appear much more willing to listen to
the gun owners’ side of the story.

As Steve points out, we were received graciously. They solicited our opinions
and asked for our help with their event.

Before I go further, let me explain their event. This will not be a militant
march of anti-gun zealots carrying placards blaming the death of every child
on the NRA and/or gun owners.

The march begins at a church, follows a pre-designated route, and ends in a
park. The “marchers” will not move in a group. They will move at their own
pace along the route which will have various “stations” (for a lack of a better
word). Each station will have a display of some kind intended to inform
people about violence involving children.

At the first display, a member of the organization will portray Julia Ward
Howe. The actor will explain that Julia Howe wrote “The Battle Hymn of the
Republic”. She was appalled by the carnage of the Franco-Prussian War and
proposed a mother’s day of peace. This eventually became Mother’s Day as
we know it.

Other stations along the route will include T-shirt sales, musicians, a band, a
poetry station, and various displays indicating that children are being killed
daily in America.

This is a much different atmosphere than is expected in the national MMM in
Washington, D.C. The San Antonio group is not vilifying gun ownership but
the inappropriate use of guns (gang shootings, accidental shootings, suicides,
etc.).

They even asked the NRA to put on an Eddie Eagle display and
demonstration. The NRA declined.

Today I spoke with a lady I believe is the Director of the Eddie Eagle Program
in Washington. She explained the NRA has been accused of using the Eddie
Eagle Program to entice youngsters to become involved with guns. You may
remember the “Joe Camel with feathers” insult by the anti-self defense
lobby. To avoid any such accusations, and because of the anti-gun rhetoric
at the national level of the MMM, the NRA simply will avoid involvement with
the MMM.

The San Antonio group however, has asked for a display showing how to
store firearms in a safe manner. I plan to do just that.

I told the NRA representative that I would have a display something along
the lines of: NRA members for child safety (or something similar). I would
indicate that this station was not sponsored by the NRA but the information
presented had been taken from various NRA sources (The American Rifleman,
American Guardian, Eddie Eagle Program, etc.).

The San Antonio group has promised to avoid anti-gun rhetoric. What they
want for a display is what TFLers have advocated repeatedly.

1. A display showing the fallacy of trigger locks. They seldom fit the firearm.
Even if they fit perfectly, trigger locks are easily installed in such a manner to
permit accidental use of the firearm by children, etc.

2. I plan to push the use of cable locks, locking tool boxes, or even bicycle
locks to secure firearms from children.

I will have NOTHING for sale, little or no money invested, and show no profit
from this venture. It will be a public service - nothing more.

Among the goals are the following:

- I want to tear down the stereotype of gun owners.
- I want to show gun owners are responsible users of firearms.
- I want to show there are different levels of security and guns can be
secured from children for the cost of a box or two of ammunition.
- I want to get into the anti-gun culture and correct their misperceptions and
factual errors.

There’s more, but you get the picture.

I have little to lose here but an afternoon in the San Antonio heat and maybe
some assaults on my ego.

We have a lot to gain by showing our better side and stressing ONE area
where all sides agree - firearms should be secured when not in use.
---

By the way, there is another group involved, POMC - Parents of Murdered
Children. The two members we met at the meeting also were guests but
their group will be represented at one or two stations along the route.

One of their main goals is truth in sentencing.

One young man was shot and killed by mistake during a drive-by shooting.
The murderer was caught, convicted, and sentenced to thirty years in prison.
He came up for parole after a mere one and one-half years.

A young woman was killed and her murderer was sentenced to twenty years.
He came up for parole after one year in prison.

One of the main functions of this POMC group is to show survivors how to
influence parole boards and ensure convicted murderers serve their full
sentence. They back Project Exile.
-----

I have been contacted by the San Antonio Express News. There will be
publicity in the media - TV, radio, and newspaper. The reporter I spoke with
said he would provide balanced reporting of the event.

There is much more - too much to put into this thread. I fully realize my
participation in the MMM event is controversial; however, if I can convince a
few people that gun ownership is not the cause of violence, I will have
achieved something of value.

Within two weeks we will know whether this was a venture “into the house of
the enemy” or a beginning of a fruitful dialogue between two opposing groups
who know so very little about each other.

With a little luck, we can stop demonizing each other and address some of
the real causes of crime without infringing even more upon the Second
Amendment.

Time will tell.
 
Im always concerned when we "help" those who support our detractors...primarily because we never truly get a fair shake in the reports that come out====and our participation is used against us.....fubsy.
 
Dennis,

I believe yours is an intelligent reasoned approach at opening the lines of communication. It's been said before, here and in other places, you can't persuade the antis. But, you CAN show those that are undecided that we believe in safe, intelligent use of firearms. I wish my wife could be there, with her children and grandchildren. That would be a big boost to your display, and a message that guns are not a "man" thing. Frankly, I'd wish that Chris's wife could be there too. Now THERE'S a telling argument in favor of the Second Amendment!

------------------
When they try to take away my 2nd Amendment rights, tell them Hell's comin' and I'm comin' with it! Armed and Dangerous
 
Dennis, I applaud your efforts. If there is any chance to inject some balance into such a situation, one should grab it and run with it as far as one can. Good luck, and I hope the press doesn't do a chop job. If they do, at least you will have gotten a chance to reach a lot of people directly. Your words, actions, and appearance will contrast in their minds with whatever negative the press might put out, and that could result in a positive in the long run.

------------------
Shoot straight & make big holes, regards, Richard at The Shottist's Center
 
I want to say this about Dennis, the man is like ice. A few of you know me and how I get my hackles raised from time to time. I for the most part kept my mouth shut and only commented when I had something positive to add. Fubsy for some reason I have a strong feeling that Dennis will come away a winner on this one, I can't really explain how except to say he was well received and liked by everyone there. I was sorta the guy that kicked down the door for the entrance but to be real honest alot of times that makes you a Jack Booted Thug in their eyes. Time will tell...

About my biggest blurb was about the fact that if the MMM would only push education and not legislation of guns, they'd have 80 million gun owners bending over backwards to help them.

The reporter also contacted me and I am supposed to call him back this afternoon and discuss al this. My plan is to tell him:

"No, I will not take part in the march, though I was well received and the people at the Peace center where courtous to me I can not in view of my beliefs take part in a march where the main sponsor is pushing for rights infringing legislation, even if the local group is not."


Dennis if you need any help getting ready let me know, I'll help, I just can't bring myself to attend yet. I'm going to try and make the meeting next monday and maybe someday I can unite with these folks hand in hand, but it will have to be a safety march and not a gun violence/legislation one. I caught the MMM founders on Oprah yesterday afternoon and that made up my mind for me.


Steve
 
I can think of no one that I would rather see represent gun owners at an event such as this than our own Dennis. I got a very good feeling about this when I read it the first time last night. Let us know how it comes out after the raly. Way to go both of you.

------------------
Gunslinger

TFL End of Summer Meet, August 12th & 13th, 2000
 
"We" definitely spend too much time "preaching to the choir".

I support your actions 100%.

Let us know how we can help.

Keep up the good work.

Sgt.K
 
I was kind of shocked when I started to read this but as I finished the thread, I support you on this Dennis. I just hope they aren't pulling your leg and change things at the last minute. The ones marching here in Chicago are marching for registration so its quite different. Good luck and if anyone can make a difference its you. :)

------------------
Sandys' Homepage
RKBA forums
We are as one as we all are the same fighting for one cause -Metallica
 
Fubsy,

You hit the nail on the head. I'm very nervous about helping a local group that is part of a national anti-gun group!

However, these folks asked us for a display about gun safety. If we refuse, we surely gain nothing. If it goes bad, I'm hoping for the "Selleck effect". (Remember when Rosie ambushed Selleck and hurt herself more than him?)

I'm hoping to show gun owners as safe, responsible citizens. That should be a step in the right direction.

Nonetheless, you have identified quite well my greatest apprehension - possible bad press.
-----

All,

Thank you for your support! I need it! Frankly, I didn't know how my effort would be perceived by others - especially strict Constitutionalists like myself. ;)

I'm hoping this will be an effort on common ground. If it goes bad, I believe it will be because of the rabidly anti-gun crowd rather than this particular MMM group.

The last meeting before the event will be held this Monday. I will attend and confirm our mutual ground rules. (I still can back out, if necessary.)

The press will be there for pre-event publicity. We'll see where this leads.

Thank Steve for putting this all in motion. He was the first man in the trenches, took it upon himself to be the focal point and to get me involved.

I think he darned near gave himself a hernia a couple times during the meeting! Some of the national MMM literature is totally false. Somehow, he held back! :D Thanks, Steve!

And thanks again to all of you for your support. I'll post updates as they occur.
 
Steve the gunner & Dennis:

I applaud what you have done and will do to win hearts and minds in San Antonio.

The NRA decision to exclude Eddie Eagle from the San Antonio event is a mistake.

Dennis, your point is well taken that no group is a homogenous monolith.

------------------
Slowpoke Rodrigo...he pack a gon...

I voted for the Neal Knox 13

I'll see you at the TFL End Of Summer Meet!
 
Good work Dennis & Steve, I think that this is indeed a good idea. I don't see how teaching gun safety is a bad thing so you certainly arn't helping their cause. It is very likely that you may make some converts which in turn may make some more. At any rate you will walk away making us looking a lot better for the effort. I certainly don't want any more gun laws anymore then anyone else but good PR is always a plus.
 
I admire your efforts to work to try and present the need for firearms safety, in the "enemy's camp". I fought the gun grabbers for nearly 35 years while living in Kalifornia, and know what a formidable job it is to try and change emotional [or dead] minds with logic and facts. (By the way, we lost.)

One thing we constantly hear is, "You people who own evil guns must COMPROMISE! Yet, every time we "compromise," we lose more of our Rights and Freedom, and then the communistnazis come back and scream, we want MORE! and you must COMPROMISE! So we compromise again, and again, and again.

The definition of "compromise" in the several dictionaries I have is where both sides agree to conceed or give up "something," to the other party. What have the gun grabbers EVER given up, when we "compromise"?

If you ask them, "What have you given up, and what will you give up to us?", you'll see their eyes cloud over with confusion until one bliss ninny will exclaim with great satisfaction, "We're giving up our Right to feel safe from your evil guns!"

Uh huh. We've nearly compromised our Rights and Liberty and Freedom to death. No more compromises!!

The communistnazis have one goal and one goal only: the complete disarming of every honest American... except for the well armed bodyguards of the politicians, their bureaucrats, and of course, the cops who will confiscate our guns. They never, ever, disengage.

Good luck on your efforts. Remember the definition of "compromise." FWIW. J.B.
 
Steve & Dennis:

I appreciate your efforts and applaud your "cool under fire".

I'm in San Antonio, so if I can help, drop me an email.

"SA" Scott
 
Dennis,

This is an outstanding opportunity if you continue to receive the same welcome. It is more effective to have you as an accepted part of the activity than as a confrontational counter group.

I support your efforts in encouraging REAL safety practices. I hope you prominently note the gun manufacturers' contributions pre-S&W agreement and that the NRA's main charter is to sponser safe and responsible venues for firearms recreation.
 
Dennis,

Just one other thought. I am always searching out a way to communicate the anguish/anger expressed in this and other forums about criminal use of firearms and our position regarding disposition of the perpetrators. Any possibilities?
 
EXCELLENT GUYS!!!!!!!!!!! That is really putting your money where your mouth is by supporting gun safety. You will need to come up with an answer for the antis you run into like, 'We support the intent of the MMM group to reduce injury to children in all forms, but not the means by which they wish to acheive it.' I would like to think that the SA group is not anti-gun, but just looking for a solution. You can be pro-gun and look for a solution. I am sure this is because the SA group is in Texas, you can bet that the MMM groups in NY and Ca. are not like the SA ladies. God bless Texas!
 
The only compromise I would be willing to talk is removing the word "gun" from the violence, just march against violence. The books are full of laws against violence, local, State and federal that need to be enforced. Broadening laws on unenforced laws is ridiculous. The march is clearly against gun ownership and that makes it a constitutional issue and the Constitution cannot be compromised, it can only be ratified.

However, I do wish you good luck in your efforts. But, I fear it will be used against you and in the end you will have accomplished nothing, but lost something. People that believe a gun can kill, or harm, anything are irrational and cannot be convinced with rationalization.
 
Way to go, Dennis & Steve!! SHowing up on teh side of safety and responsibilityis the way to go, though i, too, fear it may be lost on the greater part of that audience. Still, I applaud your efforts and can only add a hearty cheers (lifting a Shiner :)) and God bless!
M2
 
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