Interesting thought.

W

WINSTON THE WOLF

Moderator
With the rift between the U.S. and Russia over Georgia, has anyone given a thought that Russia might do the same thing to the U.S. That we are doing to them, like aid and arms to Georgia and Poland.

Iran might not have Nuclear weapons right now, and probably not for many years. But if the U.S. pisses off Russia more. Iran could have Nukes in a very very short time. We gave nukes to Israel. Russia might want to give Iran some as well. Who would stop them if they wanted to.

Iran allready has Russia bombers and fighters. Nukes would be very easy to ship over.

This is very dangerous ground right now.
 
There are those that claim that we have nothing to fear from Russia. I feel that such beliefs are foolish to say the least.
 
I suspect that Israel is just waiting til Iran has spent as much

money and time (on Russian engineers and such) before they take out their nuclear program.
 
Yeah, I don't know that those Russian engineers are doing much more than taking Iran's money. I can't think of anybody (Saudi Arabia, Russia, US, anybody) who wants Iran to have nukes.
 
I don't like what Russia has done in Georgia, but I understand it. The US should be extending a true olive branch and pushing for Russia to be included in NATO, then giving them anti-ballistic missile technology so that they can secure their eastern border with China. China is a bigger threat to the US than Russia, and China is also a bigger threat to Russia than the US is. We should be pushing for a real, workable alliance, not alienating ourselves from the most helpful ally against our real enemies.
 
"We gave nukes to Israel. "

I don't think that's true at all. The evidence is that Israel did it on her own, as did India and Pakistan.

That's opposed to those in the sand pits, they have receive much help on weapons of all types from Russia, China and N. Korea. Not to mention more than a little assistance from our faithful old allies in France and Germany.
 
I think Russia is trying to flex it's muscle a little, and let the world know it's a force to be reckoned with. As far as Iran, that's a completly different animal.


i don't see how this country and that country can have nuclear weapons, but say oh no you can't have one.... I do understand the politics and the danger, but to threaten a country with violence, over a weapon that hasn't been made, is just stupid.




"My opinion is worth what you paid for it"

Rick
 
quick: i don't see how this country and that country can have nuclear weapons, but say oh no you can't have one....
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Isn’t it funny that the countries that have nukes keep telling everyone else that they can’t?

I’m certainly not in favor of nuclear proliferation. However, what a sovereign country does within its own borders is their own business. It’s no different than another country or the UN telling us we can’t have guns.
 
How about the majority of the Middle Eastern fanatics?
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That's because eveyone knows that Iran has a screw loose, and no one wants to be responsible for pushing the button on Israel....or better yet no one wants the repercussion's of pushing the button..


These are countries that have been at war with each other,for thousands of years, and we think we can police them and find peace between them?
 
let's face the facts, we are in a lose lose senerio. If we back Georgia, we make enemies with Russia and Iran and possibly China. If we do nothing to help Georgia, we are nothing but talk, then we don't back the very freedom we preach to everyone.


Send aid to Georgia like we are doing, even supply weapons, like Iran has in Iraq, but NO TROOPS, we cannot afford the 2 wars we are in now, to add a third is completly crazy.
 
We should play Russia's game back on them in Georgia. Send troops for humanitarian aid purposes to every single city, town, and village at the edge of where Russia is occupying and let them know that those troops are only there to ensure the distribution of aid and that harm or hostilities toward those troops would be answered the same way the Russians did.

Then walk those troops under the Red Cross into those areas that Russia is occupying. Then send daily reports to Russia and the press about 'unacceptable' tacit threats being made on them and request Russian troops be removed from that area as there exists no threat to Russia from there by our assurance.

'They are merely peace keepers and are only performing humanitarian aid.'
 
Regardless of what we do in Georgia, I don't think we'll ever be able to trust Putin (afterall, does anyone really believe he's not still in charge?) But I think that if we do nothing, this may happen to more Eastern European nations. I suspect that Putin wishes to regain the type of power that was posessed before the fall of the Soviet Union. As far as Russia giving nukes to Iran, well I think that anyone with enough money could probably get nukes from Russia.
 
It already has.......prior to Georgia, Estonia felt the wrath of Russia. They have in place already the loyal Russian movement there. It didn't get military as Estonia is a member of NATO and the EU. So Russia hit them economically by severly restricting trade with them.

Estonia is another coastal country.....
 
We should play Russia's game back on them in Georgia. Send troops for humanitarian aid purposes to every single city, town, and village at the edge of where Russia is occupying and let them know that those troops are only there to ensure the distribution of aid and that harm or hostilities toward those troops would be answered the same way the Russians did.

Then walk those troops under the Red Cross into those areas that Russia is occupying. Then send daily reports to Russia and the press about 'unacceptable' tacit threats being made on them and request Russian troops be removed from that area as there exists no threat to Russia from there by our assurance.

'They are merely peace keepers and are only performing humanitarian aid.'
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Stiring the pot will lead to an escalation, Maybe that's what the arm chair Soldiers want.
 
Well, Russia is already considering same:


Russia Considers Nuclear Missiles for Syria, Mediterranean, Baltic
http://debka.com/headline.php?hid=5513
DEBKAfile Special Report
August 17, 2008, 9:25 AM (GMT+02:00)

DEBKAfile's military sources report Moscow's planned retaliation for America's missile interceptors in Poland and US-Israeli military aid to Georgia may come in the form of installing Iskandar surface missiles in Syria and its Baltic enclave of Kaliningrad.

Russian Baltic and Middle East warships, submarines and long-range bombers may be armed with nuclear warheads, according to Sunday newspapers in Europe.

In Georgia, Russian troops and tanks advanced to within 30 km of Tbilisi Saturday, Aug. 15. A Russian general said Sunday they had started pulling out after president Dimitry Medvedev signed the ceasefire agreement with Georgia and president George W. Bush called again for an immediate withdrawal.

After routing Georgia over the breakaway enclaves of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, Moscow appears to be eying Poland, the Middle East, and possibly Ukraine, as the main arenas for its reprisals.

One plan on the table in Moscow, DEBKAfile's sources report, is the establishment of big Russian military, naval and air bases in Syria and the release of advanced weapons systems withheld until now to Iran (the S-300 air-missile defense system) and Syria (the nuclear-capable 200 km-range Iskandar surface missile).

Shortly before the Georgian conflict flared, Moscow promised Washington not to let Iran and Syria have these sophisticated pieces of hardware.

The Iskander's cruise attributes make its launch and trajectory extremely hard to detect and intercept. If this missile reaches Syria, Israel will have to revamp its anti-missile defense array and Air Force assault plans for the third time in two years, as it constitutes a threat which transcends all its defensive red lines.

Moscow's war planners know this and are therefore considering new sea and air bases in Syria as sites for the Iskander missiles. Russia would thus keep the missiles under its hand and make sure they were not transferred to Iran. At the same time, Syrian crews would be trained in their operation.

DEBKAfile's military sources report Syrian president Bashar Assad will be invited to Moscow soon to finalize these plans in detail.

Military spokesmen in Moscow said Saturday and Sunday that Russian military planners to started redesigning the nation’s strategic plans for a fitting response to America's decision to install 10 missile interceptors in Poland and the war developments in Georgia.

The chairman of the Israeli Knesset foreign affairs and defense committee, Tzahi Hanegbi, spoke out strongly Sunday, Aug. 17, against treasury plans to slash the defense budget. He warned that the military faced grave confrontations in the coming year – possibly on several fronts.
 
The conflict isn't nearly as simple as you think Winston. It's also not as benign as you seem to think. It can be fun to pretend to be insightful and toss a nade thinking yourself clever but this is a genuinely serious situation.

Here is a map that has alot of clarifying information in it. Can you work out that it's not at all defensive weapons emplacement that Russia is focused on?

Note that northern Georgia has been something the Russians have been spending alot of attention on, that if you need to get mass quantities of product to a world market you need sea ports to do so, and ask yourself what is financing Russia's re-emergence and re-assertion of power.
 
Having actually lived in Eastern Europe and Russia, I tend to see the situation from a perspective different than most Americans, but it's hilarious and 'typical' that when I begin to mention the comparison between 'Iraq' and 'Georgia' - I'm told it's not relevant to the discussion and am instantly censored.


In reality 'Iraq' is central to the foreign policy rift between the U.S. and Russia - and has been the biggest source of disagreement between Russia and the U.S. since 2001. When Bush first met with Putin in Moscow, he went to the ballet with Putin and Veronin<Moldova's leader>which was a clear message to Bush that Eastern Europe is a sensitive concern. When Bush staged the 1st big conference in Bucharest, the U.S. media did not even report that Putin had visited the capitols of neigboring countries just days earlier...and that included Georgia.


Russia doesn't want Iran to have nukes, but Russia also doesn't want U.S. military bases in Iran - or an Iran destabilized by a reckless U.S. invasion.
Why? Well, Iran is on Russia's border. Iraq is near Russia's border. Russia doesn't like to have fighting on its border and millions of refugees on its borders - and that's a very legitimate concern.


Russia has fought Islamic extremism for many years/centuries. The old Russian cross - is a cross rising up out of a fallen islamic crecent. This is not an issue that is exclusive - or even remotely exclusive to the old U.S.S.R.
It goes waay back 100's of years.


Bush in essence bribed certain countries - such as Georgia - to send troops to Iraq - and the rift widened between Russia and the U.S.A. Upon the initial invasion of Iraq, the U.S. media was reporting hysteric stories about Iraqis using 'Russian Night Vision Goggles'... Yet in Russia the invasion date had been published months earlier in the mainstream Russia media, whereas the U.S. media failed to report it.


The U.S. can interfere in Georgia - if the U.S. really wants to do so. I don't think anyone in the world aside from Georgia's dictator and the U.S.A. would see it as a wise move. France's peculiar leader might chime in and suck up to the U.S. position, but it's a bit funny since France - unlike Georgia - refuses to allow U.S. soldiers to be based on French soil. Russia tends to view Iraq as America's Chechnya, and tends to view the increased U.S. interference in Georgia as a desparate reckless move that is the result of the U.S. quagmire in Iraq and Afghanistan.


Russia realizes Bush is a discredited lameduck, and that a real and new round of talks will begin on Georgia as soon as the U.S. gains a more legitimate respectful government. An Obama administration will likely reestablish a better dialogue with Russia and Georgia - and Russia is perfectly willing to have a vibrant independent Georgia on its border - so long as it doesn't come with U.S. missles and soldiers. Russia might even help facilitate a peaceful U.S. withdrawel from Iraq....and asist in a peacekeeping role in that area.
 
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