Interesting Self Defense Shooting - Eagleton

I am not sure why various folks here are hung up on this "running away" business
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It's a hollywood idea that's been mainstreamed. I'm not saying it's right, or that it's wrong. I'm saying it's the way it is. We have some level of defense available to us, but it'll be judged on a case by case basis, and almost always less so than an actual officer who will often have technically more restrictive rules on such a shooting.

In my state, I could probably point to our state laws, and convince a lawyer and a judge. The Jury would probably be at best even money given state politics.

I could argue he was committing a felony in my presence, and on me. This is grounds for deadly force by both civilians and LEO in WA. I could argue that given his rapid response to go from watch it, to pulling a knife, as well as his repeated efforts to clash with me, he posed a significant threat of death or injury to myself and/or others.

I'm not a lawyer so I may have the nuance wrong, but that's pretty much the end result of Tennesee v. Garner 471 US 1 (1985) for when a law enforcement officer is able to justify deadly force on a fleeing suspect.

The last thought I'd leave you with is that it's still a crap shoot. You could get an activist judge, you're going to go broke from legal fees, and worst of all, you will have shot someone. With the public stigma of it being "in the back".
 
In Texas, to legally use lethal self defense, the fear of death or severe injury must be immediate and reasonable.

A person running away (unless armed) provides evidence that that fear is not immediate nor reasonable. Its one factor, but its like any other piece of evidence. Is the BG running away to get a better shooting position? Is the BG running away? Is the BG running to get his buddies (no can't shoot fyi).
 
His first lawyer was dismissed *by the judge* for gross incompetence.
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Missed that. I thought you were talking about the attorney that represented him at trial. Pretty darned rare for a judge to dismiss an attorney for incompetence.
 
I could argue he was committing a felony in my presence, and on me. This is grounds for deadly force by both civilians and LEO in WA. I could argue that given his rapid response to go from watch it, to pulling a knife, as well as his repeated efforts to clash with me, he posed a significant threat of death or injury to myself and/or others.

I'm not a lawyer so I may have the nuance wrong, but that's pretty much the end result of Tennesee v. Garner 471 US 1 (1985) for when a law enforcement officer is able to justify deadly force on a fleeing suspect.
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It has to be a felon who would pose a substantial risk to the public safety (can't remember the exact wording) to authorize LEO to do this and remain within U.S. constitutional authority. I have no idea what Texas state law authorizes its LEO or private citizens to do.
 
When I was growing up, my Dad, (a proper English Gentleman who emigrated in the 50's) was the soul of courtesy, a good example.
However when he saw something that was obviously rude and uncalled for, especially to a female, he would take all 6'2" of his polite English self and be shockingly direct, without raising his voice but with a very steady look on his face. No one ever saw fit to make an issue of it.:D
This is a man who as a child during WWII on the outskirts of London slept under what amounted to a large table built out of oak 4x4 timbers. The theory being that if the house were hit by bombs the "bomb shelter" would leave you in an air pocket and you could be dug out (hopefully) alive. It changed him. He hates Bullies, and taught me to confront them in turn.
Every day I am armed, in large part due to the good advice I've gotten here (thanks Frank), I have to remind myself not to follow his example.
Sad, really.
 
Use a gun to shoot a guy who is running away with a knife?

Uhh.... :eek:


You're gonna go to jail with most juries sitting in judgement on that at your trial. As you should.


Willie


.
 
Quote:
A person running away (unless armed) provides evidence that that fear is not immediate nor reasonable.

Weilding a knife is armed, yes?
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All other factors being equal what Willie said. If he's running away, with a knife, he is not an immediate threat. Now if he's circling to attack you from a different direction, thats different, and abviously the facts of each scenario are different.

But just because he has a knife doesn't mean you can waste him. He's no longer an immediate threat to you.
 
Having read the posts on the linked website, we should also realize he wasn't actually running away- at least according to the thrid or fourthhand accounts of a supposed juror in the trial. In other words, I have no reason to accept all that was said as fact, but even less reason to not accept those as the facts of the case.

Turning is not running.

A knife inside of 21 feet is a significant threat.

Someone so off their rocker they take their shirt off in the rain, phsyically assault someone, leave, and return with a knife-has committed at least a couple felonies and is so off their rocker, I would suspect them of being a danger to anyone they passed, even if they did attempt to leave the scene.
 
All other factors being equal what Willie said. If he's running away, with a knife, he is not an immediate threat. Now if he's circling to attack you from a different direction, thats different, and abviously the facts of each scenario are different.
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And how do you know the difference? How do you know that when he starts to run that it isn't the start of the circle of attack?

Generally speaking, you simply have to believe that your life or the life of another is still endangered and that your action is necessary for self defense.
 
JimDandy said:
Someone so off their rocker they take their shirt off in the rain, phsyically assault someone, leave, and return with a knife-has committed at least a couple felonies and is so off their rocker, I would suspect them of being a danger to anyone they passed, even if they did attempt to leave the scene.
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But if they're leaving the scene, they're no longer a threat to anyone at the scene; suspecting that someone might be a danger to others in the future isn't a justification for shooting him.
 
So if Law Enforcement were standing there instead of your or I, and been involved in exactly the same way, assaulted, threatened by a knife weilding assailant, and this assailant were leaving the scene they would not be justified in shooting the assailant?
 
So if Law Enforcement were standing there instead of your or I, and been involved in exactly the same way, assaulted, threatened by a knife weilding assailant, and this assailant were leaving the scene they would not be justified in shooting the assailant?
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Right or wrong, the police have different rules of engagement when it comes to fleeing suspects.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimDandy
Someone so off their rocker they take their shirt off in the rain, phsyically assault someone, leave, and return with a knife-has committed at least a couple felonies and is so off their rocker, I would suspect them of being a danger to anyone they passed, even if they did attempt to leave the scene.

But if they're leaving the scene, they're no longer a threat to anyone at the scene; suspecting that someone might be a danger to others in the future isn't a justification for shooting him.
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Exactly.
 
Right or wrong, the police have different rules of engagement when it comes to fleeing suspects.
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The extent of those differences will vary from state to state.

Just poking around, I find Michigan apparently by statute allows citizens arrests, and provides guidelines for when deadly force may be used during those arrests.

In Washington we have this one competing with this one that could offer up much the same thing.
 
But if they're leaving the scene, they're no longer a threat to anyone at the scene; suspecting that someone might be a danger to others in the future isn't a justification for shooting him.
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This logic is directly controverted by Tennessee V. Gardner which states that if someone uses deadly force or the threat of deadly force in the commission of a crime or in an escape attempt, the person is a danger to society, and law enforcement officers may use deadly force to stop him or her even if (s)he is no longer armed. True, this applies specifically to LEOs, but in many jurisdictions, under the law, citizens have the same powers of arrest as LEOs.
 
but in many jurisdictions, under the law, citizens have the same powers of arrest as LEOs.
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Powers of arrest, perhaps. But I would be very curious to know how common it really is for the citizens to have the exact same "use of force" guidelines as the police.
 
The story should go a long ways to remind us of how even what appears to be an obvious "good shoot" can still land you in a legal nightmare.
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This is where we differ. I do not see this as a black and white "good shoot". They were arguing and scuffling and it turned deadly. My opinion, for what it is worth is that the shooter escalated the situation by being "Rude" and possibly antagonizing the attacker. I do however believe it was a good shoot based on the available evidence, and with that level of investigation am surprised it ever went to trial. Sounds confusing? Did not mean for it too.
 
According to "the full story" on the linked page, the shooter made a verbal comment- watch where you're going- and immediately proceeded on his way, while the shootee removed his shirt and chased down the shooter to continue the confrontation beyond an angry verbal exchange. After a 2-20 minute phsycial altercation, the shootee left screaming verbal threats. The shooter then tried to continue to leave the area, when he was again confronted by the shootee, who jabbed at him with a closed folding knife.

That's an awful lot of the shooter trying to leave to think the instigation and thus blame was a simple comment of Watch where you're going.
 
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