Interesting Robbery Shootout with IPSC Grandmaster

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Bartholomew Roberts

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Source: http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2011/feb/08/sandy-thalheimer-jeweler-armed-robbery-shot-back/

Apparently, the owner of a defensive shooting school and a Grandmaster IPSC shooter, Sandy Thalheimer, happened upon a robbery outside his jewelry store. 4 robbers had just robbed the man delivering jewelry to his jewelry store and were escaping in a black Ford Taurus.

Thalheimer was already in his truck, heading out to 7-11, and saw them speeding off in the Taurus. He rammed the Taurus with his truck, causing the airbags to deploy and disabling their vehicle. He then exited his vehicle and proceed to get in a gunfight with a 5-shot pocket pistol.

As it turned out, there were more than 4 robbers. Apparently there were some additional lookouts with vehicles who also opened fire on Thalheimer and collected the bad guys. Bad guys escaped with no reports of injuries on either side.

I thought this would be an interesting discussion for Tactics because several of the decisions Mr. Thalheimer made, while undoubtedly brave, are controversial:

1. Engage in pursuit after the robbery had happened to retrieve property?
2. Start a gunfight at car-length distances with a pokcet-pistol that holds 5 shots when the other car had four men in it?

I think it also highlights the importance of not getting tunnel vision as well. I don't think it would have occured to me, had I been in a gunfight with FOUR men, that there might actually be even more bad guys nearby.

Glad to read that Mr. Thalheimer survived the incident without injury and hopefully will be able to incorporate some of this experience into his future training.
 
This is why insurance companies exist.

I think his decisions were epically bad. Insurance would have paid the supplier on a legitmate claim, and he may face criminal charges himself. He simply needed to pick up his cell phone and call the police.
 
A good lesson for each of us. I am not an off duty police officer, and have no reason to attempt to catch the BG. To take them on with a 5 shot handgun was unwise.

Now he has a damaged truck, and maybe some minor injuries, and the
BG are loose.

I am convinced that many instructors, and some skillful shooters greatly underestimate how different a real gunfight is.

Regards,
Jerry
 
Big mistake trying to be the hero. Hopefully he and his family do not become targets of gang related retaliation as a result of this.
 
For the reasons given above, it is clear that he was not thinking on his feet very well, and did not have much of a plan. A bit of bravura seems to permeate his actions and perhaps his comments afterward. I hope it doesn't get him killed anytime soon. He is lucky he got out of this OK, in my opinion. This would be a good "what not to do" lesson at his school.

If he wanted to be a hero, following the robbers while he was on the phone to 911 would have been a lot better way to recover the stolen goods. He put himself and bystanders at risk and accomplished nothing.
 
One can try to psychoanalyze motivations and tactically analyze the situation. That would be fun.

For now, I'll say - You had a situation that did not involve an active threat of grievous bodily harm to anyone. The robbery was over.

You then caused numerous rounds to be launched into the neighborhood over potentially recoverable or insured property.

Was it worth it? Of course, we can talk about being a coward, crime must be stopped, etc. If you go that route and screw up - you need to accept responsibility for it.

I've been 'shot' with sims in a simulated altercation by the good guy who should have minded his own business. In the inner thigh - good thing it was just a bruise.

PS - from a pure RKBA PR view. We don't need ineffectual interventionists tooting their horn in failure filled after action reports.
 
This is just bizarre. After the first decision to ram the robbers' vehicle..

Thalheimer planned to back away, but his truck was stuck, entangled in their car, he said. “At that point, I didn’t want to get executed sitting on my gun,” Thalheimer said. He got out of his truck. “There was nowhere to run. I had to deal with it,” he said. He and the suspects, who were also wearing bandanas, exchanged gunfire, Thalheimer said.
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So if we believe Thalheimer, his original intent was not to initiate a gunfight, rather to slow or stop the apparent thieves' flight. Is this an unreasonable act as a business owner?

Once engaged with the thieves, however, he had put himself in a situation that required force as he was in fear for his life.

All he had was a 5-shot pistol in the truck, which was a decision made well before this incident. Perhaps not a very good one.

I'm not sure why the reporter felt the need to inlude "who were also wearing bandanas," as if that makes them all the more menacing.

“You just react and you’re just doing it … I was looking at the front sights and thinking about the trigger." No one was injured as a result of the shots fired, said Naples police Lt. John Barkley at the scene. However, Thalheimer said he wasn’t sure whether a bullet from his gun may have hit at least one of the suspects. There was no trace of blood reported at the scene.
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Not even sure what to say about that.

Overall it's easy to say hey everything was insured, he should have just let them go, get the license plate... but the thieves used two switch cars, likely stolen. So that would have been worthless.
 
Thalheimer didn't strike me as the gung-ho type. I don't think it is a good idea to try and stop robbers once a robbery is over, but I can see how someone can make a snap decision (such as ramming the robbers car) without thinking through all the consequences. It was my impression that he did not want to start a gunfight, but he did put himself into a position that instigated one. I think he got really lucky and made some choices that, in hindsight, were rather poor...

I do think its curious that he was talking to reporters so quickly after the incident though...
 
That's easy to explain. When one engages in a high stress incident, you want the emotional release to talk about it and you want confirmation that you did the right thing. You want to be stroked and in some sense comforted.

Did I do OK?

Being a grandmaster - one must feel some unease at not really saving the day. You know that you really didn't hit anyone, save anyone and if clued into the SD issues - maybe screwed up. So comfort me.

Of course, in a situation like this - if it had gone awry - talking might not be the best legal strategy. Hence, all the training to keep your utterances to those that would be to your benefit. Like - where's my lawyer?

IPSC shooting and IDPA are games. Not tactical common sense scenarios. I don't know how many times when we read an IDPA scenario - we laugh to say our really response is fleeing in terror at top speed, rather than charging down the hallway to meet and greet the nine targets (who conveniently are cardboard).

One important point in this incident is the hidden backup. In good FOF, you run into those - oops. Been shot with airsoft and sims by such - a mildly painful lesson.
 
Technically, since the robbery was over and the robbers were not threatening anyone at the time, rammng the get away car could be considered assault. I doubt the robbers would try and press charges, but it was a bone headed move. He should have gotten a good look at the vehicle and license plate and maybe followed discreetly at a distance. I doubt the robbers knew who he was. He could have had the cops surrounding them up ahead. Instead, he "initiated" a gun fight that could have gone very badly for himself and others. He could also be the target of retaliation attacks as previously mentioned. That was a heck of a bone headed move in my opinion.
 
booker_t said:
Once engaged with the thieves, however, he had put himself in a situation that required force as he was in fear for his life.
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And that's the problem -- he put himself in a situation which he could have avoided. The thieves were leaving -- driving away -- when he decided to engage them: no lives, neither his own nor anyone else's, were being threatened at that point.

It's hardly "self-defense" if someone chooses to put himself in harm's way: it's akin, logically, to the famous story about the fellow who kills his parents and then asks the court to have mercy, because he's a poor orphan.

KLRANGL said:
I do think its curious that he was talking to reporters so quickly after the incident though...
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Maybe not -- the article says he has "taught hundreds of people defensive shooting tactics at Sandy Thalheimer Defensive Gun School."

He probably thinks it's great publicity for his other business. I find it sort of frightening that someone with such poor judgment is actually teaching this stuff. :eek:

And I think there are lessons to be learned from this about the difference between training to shoot -- which Mr. Thalheimer clearly has done rather extensively -- and what actually happens in a gunfight. It's very fortunate that no bystanders were hit.

I was also struck by his statement that "...he couldn’t describe the suspects because he was concerned more about shooting the armed men and avoiding being shot."

So much for being a good witness. Descriptions and license plate numbers might have been more valuable than his attempt to play hero in catching the robbers and recovering the stolen property.
 
^To that effect the grandmaster scored zero hits from a car length away...

Very different when you have living breathing dynamic targets.
 
Shooting various targets and going through obstacles is one thing, when hot lead is pointed at you it gains a whole new weight.

The fact that he was uninjured leads one to postulate that we was firing from a defensive position although he was seemingly in aggression mode. I could be totally wrong but its a reasonable guess and probably a reasonable action if one thinks his overall actions are justified.

I think defending his place was not a bad idea but once they left IMHO I think he lost some of his legal standing in this matter.

I do think you should be able to defend your stuff.... I dont know... this ones going to leave me thinking for sure...

Great post..
 
I find it sort of frightening that someone with such poor judgment is actually teaching this stuff.
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Agreed. As others have pointed out, he was in no danger, and the robbers were leaving the scene without having harmed anyone.

Very, very bad tactics, from the standpoints of both safety and legal strategy.
 
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