Interesting Ideas, Your opinions/Thoughts?

I take it people don't like my ideas at all. Well, since I never claimed to have any power to make them happen, I'm not really hurt. They were fanciful at best, but intended to point out that the Second Amendment is not about preference in people's toys, but about power in a people's hands.

I understand about Heller separating out the preambular/prefactory clause. Immediately upon reading that in the decision in 2008, my thought was of how the more the Court separates the two, the lower the level of arms which will be allowed under the Amendment's right. It is far easier for the government to justify to nine idiots in dresses the idea of taking "military-style" firepower from simple citizens than it is from "militiamen". The court has already made it fairly clear "we the people" aren't getting full-auto or any crew-served items (which opens the way for bans on .50 caliber sniper rifles and such--think about it before arguing). If the court comes to view "assault weapons" as simply the same thing as prohibited arms, junior class, it becomes all the easier for them to uphold a ban.

Of course, we hopefully can win challenges in court through the "common use" standard, as there are simply umpteen millions of the targeted weapons and magazines in private use. That said, it leaves open the way for future, less private arms-friendly courts to permit blocking public access to future advancements in weapons technology, unless there is some link to the militia function. It may be fine for this generation, but it leaves our posterity facing the prospect of being essentially stuck with our level today, while the miilitary state of the art continues to advance. Please pardon the sci-fi reference here, but it conjures up the "Firefly/Serenity" image of regular citizens running around with projectile weapons, while government forces and elites have lasers and whatnot.

Hence, the "resistance to tyranny" argument we hear so much more of lately becomes weaker and weaker the more individualistic the amendment becomes. A bunch of untrained individuals with different agendas, no sense of cooperation, and uncoordinated armament simply could not put up an ultimately victorious resistance. And this reality will grow the more the government's level of weaponry advances, while that of the people remains static. The "resistance" would be nothing more than petty troublemaking and what otherwise would be considered terrorism.

If the only thing a gun owner is concerned about is their own individual/family safety or maybe some element of cultural and heritage preservation, then all of this is fine. Heller and public opinion seem solid with basic home defense arms, and CCW is still popularly accepted. And your pretty six-shooters should survive. So don't be as upset as some people are about the newly-proposed bans. There are alternatives in home defense, and you can adjust your hobby as needed. And a hundred years from now, the same technological level of arms will probably still be about as effective. Or maybe there will be a review of the technological level (as I suggested) and maybe the court will approve, say, stun phasers or some such fancy gizmo. But the link of private arms to the Militia will be gone in all practical terms, so don't expect "Blast" or "Kill" settings on them, while government models have both and a whole lot more. To borrow from another sci-fi universe, "Resistance [will be] futile".

Simply put, then, if you are only being individualist about this, then don't worry too much about the upcoming fight over "assault weapons". After all, you all have your NASCAR to watch and your Evinrudes to tweak. All it boils down for you to is that you might lose a few of your toys (or have to pay $200 each to keep them until forfeiture to the government upon your death). On the other hand, if you look at the whole matter from the higher perspective of what the Founders sought and the welfare of our country now and for our posterity--in other words, the way a patriot would see it--then it should be an issue of extreme importance. For those in the latter group, you will need to decide if the risk of "no compromise" is worth it, compared to the spectre of catastrophic loss of rights.

We shall see.
 
Hence, the "resistance to tyranny" argument we hear so much more of lately becomes weaker and weaker the more individualistic the amendment becomes. A bunch of untrained individuals with different agendas, no sense of cooperation, and uncoordinated armament simply could not put up an ultimately victorious resistance.

Yep. That is why we lost to the crown in 1779. If only we had defeated the British than the whole world would be different. Since they were the world's most powerful military at the time and our forces were a bunch of rabble the outcome was never in question.

;)

I think what Blair Mountain proved (as well as a few other events lost in history) is that rebels don't have to be victorious in battle to win on agenda. The threat of mass insurrection alone can force the government to adopt policy that is more freedom oriented. This has happened over and over again in history. That is how we got the Magna Carta.
 
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It is far easier for the government to justify to nine idiots in dresses the idea of taking "military-style" firepower from simple citizens than it is from "militiamen".
Your disdain for the spirit of the Constitution and our system of government is staggering.

A merits-based parceling of rights takes us back to the 17th century, in which rights were pretty much balanced in favor of rich, white, landowning men. Everyone else got to beg for scraps. We don't live in that world any more, and thank goodness for that.

We've had a mass school shooting, with evidence included. We have such and such info on the weapon used. Please identify the one to whom this weapon is registered.
We already have such a tracing system in place without registration of arms at the consumer level. That's how Holmes' weapons were tracked so efficiently within hours of the Aurora shooting.

I did suggest working trade-offs on "liberal" rights (First Amendment).
If they're negotiable, they aren't rights. Such a compromise would never be seriously entertained by either side. Even if one were agreed to, we'd see a situation down the road in which the restriction on 1A rights would be found unconstitutional while the 2A restriction would be left to stand. The net effect would be a loss for us, so why should we accept that?

Your thesis is poorly written, poorly argued, and I could spend all day tearing it apart.
 
I just can't fathom how one could think allowing trade-offs and compromises on a right would protect it. Sir, I would ask that you go back and read Scalia's words in Heller again. The way he defines common use and explains the basis of the right mean future advancements should be included. If you don't have confidence in the courts, and you need not, then such an argument only explains why we need to continue to fight for our rights through our elected representatives and build and maintain a strong community of gun (phaser/laser/plasma/railgun/etc.) owners in this country.

Rolling over and saying "OK, you can tell me I can only have this one type of rifle because its all I need to protect myself" certainly won't do any better.
 
I have been given "unalienable Rights" by my "Creator".

Notice the period at the end of that sentence.

These rights mean nothing if they can be easily taken away by a tyrannical government.

All of our FREEDOM depends upon ALL of the rights in the Bill of Rights that is why they are there.
The right to defend those rights rests within the 2nd Amendment.

Just because our opponents too stupid and fanatical to understand that we are protecting ALL of our citizens freedom is no reason to doom their innocent children, as well as the rest of us, to being helpless in the face of tyranny.

No compromise, no retreat, these are our Rights people.

RIGHTS are not up for discussion. We can be deprived of them, but they do not go away, they are, as correctly labeled in the Declaration of Independence, given by our Creator.
Will we let ourselves, and all future generations, be deprived of our Rights or not?
It will be up to all of us to decide what keeping these rights are worth.
May I be so bold as to suggest a standard? " our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor."
 
I agree with Vanya about the unorganized militia. It's an idea that never actually functioned in the past, and I don't see how it could now. Most Americans simply aren't interested in the realities (rather than the fantasies) of being in any sort of military. I freely admit I'm one of those. I'm not suited by temperament, age, or physical abilities to be a soldier. I carry because, if somebody attacks me or somebody I love and I am in fear for my life, I want to be able to defend myself and them. That's all.

And *that* is the right that Heller upheld: not to be in the military (of any sort, in any capacity), but the right to self-defense.
 
Holy whackamole.
Did I really just read all that?
Somebody please assure me all that was really just an exercise in satire, or irony.
 
Vanya, stop with the haikus and say something of substance.

Alabama Shooter: You are incapable of reading things in context. I was talking about the growing situation. On that, the quote from Tennessee Shooter someone posted goes will with what I said, though his definition of "the militia" is off. Actually it's "the militia"--singular--"of the several states" (Article 1, Section 8). Aside from that, he makes several points in his post.

Tom Servo: I am being realistic about the Supreme Court--you know, the one that approved Obamacare.

And to everyone here: If being a patriot and putting country before individual is "statist," then call me a statist. Your individualism is killing the very freedom you treasure above your country.
 
OPTION 1--"STATION IN LIFE": Allowed weapons dependent on station in life (I am NOT an egalitarian). Four-tier (plus one subset) system:

1. "Urban schmuck": Pump shotgun (.410 and/or 12) for home defense, plus pistol-caliber carbine (probably HiPoint-esque) for home as well as homeland (and community) defense.

2. "Rural schmuck": All of the above, plus full-power rifle due to land expanse, threat from four-legged critters, and longer emergency response time.

-- Subset--"Police": Full-size sidearm. (CAVEAT: This is based on the current practice of allowing police to be armed at all.)

3. "Military" (active and veteran): All of the above, plus "assault weapons," as they have the training to use them.

4. "Elite" (e.g., Donald Trump, or at least his corporations; "private security" firms, etc.): All of the above, plus whatever is suitable.
So if you are a 4-type & you go bankrupt, you will now be a 1-type & have to surrender what YOU think that I don't need?
It's my RIGHT, not my NEED, keep that in mind at all times please.
You're pretty creative, but NO..
 
Tommy, the Founders managed to combine a strong sense of patriotism and a preference for individualism in their codification of our rights. I see no reason why we need to change what they established now.

Losing protection for individual rights will do nothing good for the system of government we have. Our government is supposed to respect its citizens, because its power is based on their authority to govern themselves. To believe otherwise smacks of the type of government our Founders intended to avoid.
 
Alabama Shooter: You are incapable of reading things in context. I was talking about the growing situation.

Growing? This is not a question of context.


And to everyone here: If being a patriot and putting country before individual is "statist," then call me a statist. Your individualism is killing the very freedom you treasure above your country.

Remember the scene in Revenge of the Sith (Star Wars III) where a young Anikan says; "From my point of view, it is the Jedi who are evil!"?

That is you.
 
TommygunNG said:
Vanya, stop with the haikus and say something of substance.

Alabama Shooter: You are incapable of reading things in context. I was talking about the growing situation. On that, the quote from Tennessee Shooter someone posted goes will with what I said, though his definition of "the militia" is off. Actually it's "the militia"--singular--"of the several states" (Article 1, Section 8). Aside from that, he makes several points in his post.
'Twas I who posted that. If you read what I quoted from TG carefully, you'll see that his use of "militia" is spot-on: "The unorganized militia spoken about in 10 USC 311 is nothing more than a pool of individuals who may be used to fill the ranks of the organized militia which is the National Guard."

You're right that militia is a singular noun. Apart from that, he does indeed make several points and what they add up to is this: the unorganized militia is a dead letter, an obsolete concept, and has been for a long time, except in the sense that it's the pool of people eligible to be called up for military service.

And if you don't think my reference to the Heller decision has any substance... you haven't been paying attention.

As to the haiku, this is what's technically known as "irony" -- your many words deserve but few in response... But here are some more, anyway. Here's the current U.S. code on the composition of the militia, organized and unorganized:

10 USC Sec. 311 01/03/2012 (112-90)

-STATUTE-
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied
males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section
313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a
declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States
and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the
National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are -
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard
and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of
the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the
Naval Militia.​

From your original, as posted by Uncle Buck:

"2. Right to arms: Preservation of a baseline of private arms suitable to an individual's station in life for the militia purpose of defense of home and homeland.
<snip>
"The theory of the "militia rifle" (aka, "Homeland Defense Rifle") is the intersection of Article 1, Section 8, Clauses 15-16 and Amendment 2. The Article allows for "arming" the "militia." Thus, even as an active duty soldier does not have a "right" to carry whatever arm he or she chooses, the "unorganized militia" would be subject to regulation. HOWEVER, the Amendment would preclude such a regulation from effectively DISarming the private individual in militia terms.
<snip>
"[The "official militia rifle"] would be--subject to mandatory periodic reviews of technology--THE Second Amendment-protected weapon.""


If you read both of these, and think about them for a moment, you'll see that your proposal would potentially disarm all women who are not members of the National Guard, as we are not part of the unorganized militia, and so would not be entitled to possess "THE Second Amendment-protected weapon."

Sakeneko and I both think that this is a really, really bad idea. :mad:

And it could also disarm all males aged 45 and older; perhaps some of the male members here would like to weigh in on how they'd feel about that.
 
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If being a patriot and putting country before individual is "statist," then call me a statist. Your individualism is killing the very freedom you treasure above your country.
That statement runs completely counter to the founders' principles, and to the spirit of our republic.

The idea of quantifying rights based on social station would be a disaster if applied across the board. As I said before, it takes us back to 18th century principles, under which Donald Trump would have a greater right to the press, to redress grievances, to be free of unreasonable seizure, or to legal proceedings than a guy working the counter at a diner. We've come to far to go back to that. Don't get huffy if people find that repellent.

I am being realistic about the Supreme Court--you know, the one that approved Obamacare.
I never mentioned the Supreme Court, or the Affordable Care Act, which is the actual name of the bill. Let's actually strive to use proper names for things here.
 
No, you are wrong. this is not negotiable.

I'll explain why, they are not trying to negotiate a settlement. They are pushing to take another step in taking all the guns except for those they wish to allow to have guns. You need to understand some thing that many people do not know or have given little thought too.

Here is one, the US State Department is for all realistic purposes entirely left wing and liberal minded. Think about what this means. The people who orchestrate our Nation's dealings with all other countries are all "those people".

They see us as uneducated and "backwater" people. They would call us "Crackers" if they allowed name calling. These same people oversee many military dealings with foreign nations as well. They drive out anyone in the State Department that isn't on their "path for a better world".

They are the same kind of people who want to talk about the "white man" took this country from the Indians, (Native Americans). They will load your back with 200 or more years of history told the way they want it told and use it to break you down to make their new world.

The only defense we have is the Constitution. Do not negotiate with it. Do not allow them to make small laws which they will use to bend and weaken it until the Constitution and our Liberties are little more then a decorative cover used to hide the bald fact that we are no longer free men.

We do NOT have to negotiate, they want us to think so, they want us to admit it, believe it, and do it. But their will be no end to the negotiations until "We the People" are just more of those people.
 
My point was not to address the legal in any great detail, but rather to address the philosophy behind our national heritage's right to arms. I aimed to start a discussion of possible compromises which would preserve suitable firepower in the hands of private citizens in this current political climate. By looking at the limited capability of common citizens in the context of modern warfare (I agree with Tennessee Gentleman on that point, and he did a good job exposing ignorance in the original post), I came up with two approaches which would deal with opposition while enabling the regular people to be part of the solution to our national problems. You see, I put higher values just a little bit higher than your precious personal image of freedom and your "rights". It always seemed stupid to me to insist on some benefit which I knew would ultimately lead to the loss of that benefit.

Unfortunately, this site has proven to be full of self-focused, self-defeating individualists who would rather see it all be taken than put their their country first, make sacrifices, and keep what they can. It is that attitude, regardless of ones thoughts on my ideas, that costs us in the political realm, and which might ultimately cost us our national sovereignty and personal freedom. It makes me proud to be a statist, and hence one of the few patriotic Americans here.

Regarding Heller: My concerns in 2008 stand, as by separating the constitutional militia function from the right to arms, the Supreme Court is--intentionally or not--setting up clearance for sweeping "assault weapons" bans. Arguing a right to pistols is easy. Shotguns--easy. Carbines--maybe. Even "hunting rifles" can be justified. However, tt is quite a stretch to argue you have a "right" to an AR or such, unless it is that such arms allow you to contribute to the national security apparatus. Eliminating the militia function precludes arguing that, and makes the "unusual and dangerous" label look attractive for at least some of the targeted arms. Many of them exceed reasonable demands in the area of self-defense, and hobbies and fun might not be enough when people see school shootings happening practically everyday. You see, judges are human. They feel people's pain. They feel pressure. And if they can use their jurisprudence to get around having to invalidate laws most people seem to want, there's no guarantee they won't.

(Just as an aside, the Circuit court in Cases v U.S., 131 F.2d 916 (1st Cir. 1942) actually alluded to this same anti-hobby in fending off a Second Amendment challenge to NFA in 1942, saying the defendant was "transporting and using the firearm (a submachine gun) and ammunition purely and simply on a frolic of his own and without any thought or intention of contributing to the efficiency of the well regulated militia that the Second Amendment was designed to foster as necessary to the security of a free state." I'm not discussing the legal precedent value, but rather noting the attitude difference between courts then and now, and people then and now.)

I suggested a line of thinking which would keep firepower in private hands, so I'm a "statist." Odd, but oh well. In any case, yes, as I said before, I am indeed a statist. I actually believe in authority and my country. I put that above myself and my little hobbies. I believe in values and principles, and am morally consistent enough to suggest implementing them as possible by force of law. Libertarians, while sometimes loyal, are by definition NOT patriots, as they put the individual (in reality, themselves) before their country. I know I will never convince you of how destructive your attitudes are. It's just too nice to be selfish. But at least by you being selfish, you will have no one to blame but yourselves when it all comes crashing down.

If the Founding Fathers could be resurrected today, they would look at you all and not only not lead another revolution, but also tell you all you deserve tyranny. You gave up principles of uprightness, community, and righteousness in the name of the precious "freedom" which is being used right now to choke your freedom. (It's kinda like what the Muslims in the UK said: "We will use your democracy to destroy your democracy".) Freedom is only good when it is the freedom to what is right, not what is wrong and not the freedom to frolic and play at hobbies. The more we can limit freedom to right choices, the stronger our country is, and thus the stronger our real freedom is. At one time, non-government forces in society could do the restraining. But those days are gone. People have indeed changed, bringing to my John Adams' line, “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”

Oh, and just an aside for whatever mental case said I was disarming women, etc.: The purpose is the militia, but the right is to "the people". My ideas in no way disarm women or anyone else (save cuckoo clocks and criminals). Quite the opposite, all can contribute in some way. As I said, it was an expression of philosophy and vision more than a legal analysis.

One last point before I bid this libertarian cesspool farewell: If major gun bans and confiscations do occur, the firepower scheme I laid out will look very good to you. But it will be too late.
 
No.
1) I'm not interested in creating a caste system.
2) I'm not interested in creating a system by which the federal government can so easily identify every firearm owner, along with exactly which firearms each such person should be allowed to own.
3) I'm not interested in pretending that the fight for gun rights is a compromise.

It's not the right of the militia to keep and bear arms. It's the right of the people.
 
My point was not to address the legal in any great detail, but rather to address the philosophy behind our national heritage's right to arms. I aimed to start a discussion of possible compromises which would preserve suitable firepower in the hands of private citizens in this current political climate. By looking at the limited capability of common citizens in the context of modern warfare (I agree with Tennessee Gentleman on that point, and he did a good job exposing ignorance in the original post), I came up with two approaches which would deal with opposition while enabling the regular people to be part of the solution to our national problems. You see, I put higher values just a little bit higher than your precious personal image of freedom and your "rights". It always seemed stupid to me to insist on some benefit which I knew would ultimately lead to the loss of that benefit.

Unfortunately, this site has proven to be full of self-focused, self-defeating individualists who would rather see it all be taken than put their their country first, make sacrifices, and keep what they can. It is that attitude, regardless of ones thoughts on my ideas, that costs us in the political realm, and which might ultimately cost us our national sovereignty and personal freedom. It makes me proud to be a statist, and hence one of the few patriotic Americans here.

Regarding Heller: My concerns in 2008 stand, as by separating the constitutional militia function from the right to arms, the Supreme Court is--intentionally or not--setting up clearance for sweeping "assault weapons" bans. Arguing a right to pistols is easy. Shotguns--easy. Carbines--maybe. Even "hunting rifles" can be justified. However, tt is quite a stretch to argue you have a "right" to an AR or such, unless it is that such arms allow you to contribute to the national security apparatus. Eliminating the militia function precludes arguing that, and makes the "unusual and dangerous" label look attractive for at least some of the targeted arms. Many of them exceed reasonable demands in the area of self-defense, and hobbies and fun might not be enough when people see school shootings happening practically everyday. You see, judges are human. They feel people's pain. They feel pressure. And if they can use their jurisprudence to get around having to invalidate laws most people seem to want, there's no guarantee they won't.

I suggested a line of thinking which would keep firepower in private hands, so I'm a "statist." Odd, but oh well. In any case, yes, as I said before, I am indeed a statist. I actually believe in authority and my country. I put that above myself and my little hobbies. I believe in values and principles, and am morally consistent enough to suggest implementing them as possible by force of law. Libertarians, while sometimes loyal, are by definition NOT patriots, as they put the individual (in reality, themselves) before their country. I know I will never convince you of how destructive your attitudes are. It's just too nice to be selfish. But at least by you being selfish, you will have no one to blame but yourselves when it all comes crashing down.

If the Founding Fathers could be resurrected today, they would look at you all and not only not lead another revolution, but also tell you all you deserve tyranny. You gave up principles of uprightness, community, and righteousness in the name of the precious "freedom" which is being used right now to choke your freedom. (It's kinda like what the Muslims in the UK said: "We will use your democracy to destroy your democracy".) Freedom is only good when it is the freedom to what is right, not what is wrong and not the freedom to frolic and play at hobbies. The more we can limit freedom to right choices, the stronger our country is, and thus the stronger our real freedom is. At one time, non-government forces in society could do the restraining. But those days are gone. People have indeed changed, bringing to my John Adams' line, “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”

One last point before I bid this libertarian cesspool farewell: If major gun bans and confiscations do occur, the firepower scheme I laid out will look very good to you. But it will be too late.

Well bye.

But before you go running off I don't find it overly amusing that you wish to take the path towards the high ground on Patriotism. I have served my country more than twenty years in the US Military through several wars on the ground. I don't doubt that you believe yourself committed but your questioning the resolve of others because they disagree with your POV is really, really misguided. You really should rethink that.

These "higher values" that you keep referring to are not an end to themselves. My commitment to my country extends to the social compact and legal contract that the government made with me to defend the Constitution and obey the orders of the President; unto death if needed. I am not sure where your level of commitment lies but if it is anything less than that you really have no room to point fingers. If it is that high than you should understand why you are wrong.

If the government starts torching the Constitution then I will be forced to execute the primary clause of defending it. I don't think we are anywhere near that nor do I think we will get there in my life time but often times the government needs a little help to stay on the right path.

I defend the Constitution not to assert the rulership of whoever is currently running things but to preserve the liberties and freedoms that most people in this country cherish.
 
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