Interesting conversation on civilian vs military training.

Sharon Pratt Kelly...

In the 1990s, when I lived in central-NOVA(VA), I heard of a major politico wanting to station or deploy uniformed Washington DC National Guard troops in HMMWVs(hummers) WITH weapons to fend off drug gangs & armed thugs.
Was it Newt Gingretch(the US Speaker of the House)? No. Rush Limbaugh? No.

It was the Washington DC Mayor(an elected official) Sharon Pratt Kelly! :rolleyes:
Many US citizens do not understand the PCA or Posse Commitatice Act(check spelling). These US laws were set up to prevent excessive military actions or LE in CONUS or the Continnental United States. These were valid, IMO to prevent the country from becoming a armed camp or a police state but in the post-9/11/2001 world, military tactics, weapons & uniforms are now more common.

Clyde
 
Clyde Frog. I do not want to get into a debate about Posse Comitatus (ditto on spelling) as this is not the subject of the thread. It is, however, my understanding that the Act does not apply to National Guard troops as long as they are under State or in this case DC control. Once they are federalized then the Act would apply.

The major difference between Military and Local Law enforcement is in my opinion MIND SET.

The military is designed to break things and inflict the most damage possible to achieve a goal. I think it is best described by the Infantry Mission statement. "To close with and destroy the enemy by means of fire and maneuver." Prior to the McNamara era it read "To close with and kill the enemy....".

The standard LEO motto is "To Protect and Serve". To me this motto means that as a law enforcement Officer I am to protect people and property at almost all cost. That is why we have negotiators who spend hours and days trying to peaceably resolve a situation. That is why we were so incensed by the conduct of the Akron OH police officer.

These are opposing positions. By adopting military tactics and training, the LEO will tend to lose the Protect and serve mind set. The recent shooting of two vehicles by LEOs during the recent manhunt shows what happens when the Military mind set embeds it's self into the Law enforcement community.

Sort of a shoot first and sort it out later as opposed to an evaluate the situation and get everyone out alive.

The military mind set first started in the SWAT movement. These units were designed and intended to resolve situations as a last resort. The members of these teams developed an ethos and swagger which less qualified officers started to emulate.

Managers further further contributed to the problem by employing these shock troops in situations which did not require their specialized training. After all you can't have a group of highly trained/paid officers setting around waiting for something to happen. They started using them in situations which did not indicate a need for the hard corp tactics.

The attitude then started to permeate entire departments as wannabee SWATS started applying the hard attitudes to all situations. This attitude is causing a further isolation of the Officers and the public they are sworn to serve and protect.
 
Sorry, amigo, I never did get an answer - Ruger revolvers were never military issue that I know of, but we had four.
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I think Navy Investigative Service and some Army units used Rugers.
 
NIS used 38 snubs when I was in - don't ask me how I had an interview with NIS while in A School...:) I wasn't in trouble, though. Probably they were from the same thinking that gave us Remington 1100s and a clay pigeon thrower on the flight deck - a former captain wanted them!
Intimidation is what you want to do to a specific person in LE, to get THAT guy to stop what he's doing RIGHT NOW. This is what we do behind the wire as well, and it works. What I don't want to see is LEOs trying to intimidate those who have done nothing wrong, are obeying the law and require no interaction with the law.
 
Team America...

I didn't know it was a debate here, :confused:.

Some of the forum posts remind me of the comedy film; Team America, World Police; www.imdb.com. To think it will go to that level in the grand ole US of A is a bit of a stretch.

As for the use of Rugers by the US armed forces, I recall as a teen(mid 1980s) reading a cool book about the US military & the uniforms, units & firearms of SE Asia. The USAF security police; SPs, & the other troops used a few Ruger Security-Six & Speed Six .38spl duty revolvers. S&W had many milspec contracts but Ruger had a small amt too.

Clyde
 
James K

Reading some of the responses to your post I want to add my $00.02 on this. One of my jobs in a previous life was to train LE with tactics from our side of the fence. (CQB / Hostage rescue / Aircraft assaults / and head of state protection etc.) these were primarily to USDOS / USSS / some large departments.

Having said that..,. I do share the same concerns that you seem to have. The militarism of LE. It seems that every police chief and county sheriff wants a military capability these days. a LOT of problems are being resolved with No Knock warrants and tactical entries that could be accomplished at a lower level of operational tempo.

It used to be that the number one overiding goal was to resolve the mission with no loss of life on EITHER side with minimum damage to property.

a lot of LE are constantly treading a fine line when their "special" teams are lining up on a door with the principles of surprise, speed, and violence of actions driving the entry.

I did a report on the Branch Davidian Fiasco - perfect case in point. - they could have just as easily picked up Koresh earlier when he was in town - but they didn't. The county sheriff had been at the compound several times and served warrants - no problem. (the only legitimate issue on the ATF warrant was a tax issue).

BUT the director wanted to play swat and use all his toys and show off his tactical prowess and it resulted in a fiasco.
 
Same thing at Ruby Ridge. At one point, prior to the siege, a surveillance unit had broken down. Randy Weaver pulled over by the car to ask if the guys needed assistance.

They could easily have made an arrest at that time, and I would be amazed if they didn't have other opportunities to make an arrest in the middle of nowhere.

Instead, they laid a siege, and killed a dog, a teenager, and the mother of an infant (as she was holding the infant).

Edit: The irony of this is that, at least for the last many years, the military makes serious attempts to go after targets when they are not near potential collateral damage. If the military is more cautious about harming innocents than LE are, that's unnerving in itself.
 
HRT/USMS-SOG...

The woman with a baby was also armed, ;).
That little tidbit should be in the Ruby Ridge incident story too.
The non fiction books; Cold Zero & No Heroes help explain the events.

FWIW; the SOG Marshals, BORTAC(the spec ops of the US Border Patrol), HRT, & DEA CLET are not perfect but they have conducted 100s of ops w/o any incident.
 
Clyde, in all the retelling of that incident, I have never heard Vicki Weaver was armed, not once, and that she was holding her baby while on the other side of a kitchen door. Perhaps you can link to official testimony of that item of information somewhere?
As to the Rugers being from Vietnam, could be - the ship did have a 'Nam ribbon on the bridge wing.
 
It doesnt matter if she was armed - the rules of engagement were illegal and against policy

no agent or anyone else was being threatened - period

Vickie was holding a ten month old when she was shot. To be fair she was actually in the line of fire when Horiuchi was shooting at Harris - but again it was an illegal shoot no matter what.

Horiuchi also came up on my radar when I was doing the Waco Report (yes he was there too) - he was shooting at the compound from the house in front of the compound on April 19th (the final raid) the FBI found his 308 casings but "declined" to match them to his rifle - hmmmmmmm
 
SF Medic Thank you for your comment #46. You expressed my thoughts and concerns (comment #42) in a concise manner.
 
Jeff Cooper...

The late Jeff Cooper decryed Lon Harutchi(a USMA grad & HRT sniper).
Cooper said Harutchi was wrong & will be accountable for his acts by some higher power.
To my knowledge, Special Agent Lon Harutchi was cleared for his first sniper shot but found by the OPR(Office of Professional Responsiblity) to be wrong for firing the second rifle shot.
I think legal eagle; Jerry Spence was Randy Weaver's atty. Spence got the Weavers about 2/3mil. $$$.

Clyde
 
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In regards to military versuses civilian training, I would like to tell a brief story to illustrate the difference.

My Plt Sgt is a Deputy in our home county as a day job. I want to say he has been a deputy for round about twenty years.

In the big Sandbox, we came upon a Taliban fellow holding his rifle at his side. He was a threat, or at least had been until his kid got hit. There was a very tense moment or two in which this guy stood and stared at four U.S. Soliders, all armed with M-4s and didn't do a thing. According to the ROE, we couldn't shoot him just then, but if he had moved to bring up said Enfield, we could have ventilated him.

I'll never forget my Platoon Sergeant screaming, in horrendous southern accented Pasthun for him to drop his weapon. The rest of were merely waiting for him to either drop it or make a move that could be considered hostile.

Riding back to the FOB, my Plt Sgt mentioned that he would have liked to have had his Tazer.
 
Being a Marine rifleman i can tell you that its nothing like the weekend rambo classes one can take. You show up and its game on for 12 weeks then on to more training as a rifleman then its on to your MOS. EVERY Marine is a rifleman. Some of us 0311 were by MOS a rifleman in the infantry. You just cant get any of that training in some weekend classes. Its a hell of a lot more than just being able to fire a weapon
 
Semper Fi!...

Right on!

Years ago, I watched a TV news reporter interview Robert K Brown(US Army Reserves, ret, SF/0-5). Brown started & was CEO of the popular Soldier of Fortune magazine.

The female reporter said: Mr Brown, what training schools or places could someone go to learn these tactics or how to handle these weapons?
Robert K Brown got a sly grin & said; There are many good places to start a career & learn these skills; Paris Island, Fort Dix NJ, Fort Benning GA, Fort Bragg NC, Camp Lejune.... :cool: .
 
Being a Marine rifleman i can tell you that its nothing like the weekend rambo classes one can take. You show up and its game on for 12 weeks then on to more training as a rifleman then its on to your MOS. EVERY Marine is a rifleman. Some of us 0311 were by MOS a rifleman in the infantry. You just cant get any of that training in some weekend classes. Its a hell of a lot more than just being able to fire a weapon
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Great post and thank you for your service.

Being a civilian, none of my weekend 3Gun, IDPA, etc courses will ever paramount to actual Military training and deployment. Rules are different in the civilian world vs LEO/Military. Nothing wrong with those civilian courses, but they just do not replicate a true hostile environment when bad guys may be shooting back with live ammunition.
 
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