Interesting comment from Shooting Industry Magazine

a person who wishes to receive professional instruction from doing so
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The operative words there are "who wishes to receive", most do not. I am not saying they don't need it, they probably do.

Pax, my hat is off to you and your family and how you have gotten by as well as you do, but, your missed the point:

Small clarification: not 16,000 ADs. 16,000 serious injuries from ADs.
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That number is a drop in the bucket, a single drop of rain in the middle of a flood and nothing compared to the number that die WORLD WIDE from conflicts going on NOW and in the PAST. Not viewing the reality of what is going on around us is as bad as the person who buys a gun and never goes out to shoot it until they have no other choice.

It would be nice if we could wrap everyone in bubble wrap and keep them safe from harm or even get everyone to take instructional training in the use of firearms, but it is not going to happen and espousing the philosophy that everyone should to become competent to use a firearm is just plain silly and unrealistic. In the last 225 years or so that the second amendment has been in effect, the number of shooters that have taken instructional training in firearm usage is well under 1 ten millionth (0.000001) or one percent, counting all the homesteaders, cowboys, peace officers, soldiers, hobbyists, hunters and yes even NRA members.

Yes, it is possible to become very competent without taking a instructional class, and yes there are a large number of people out there that are incompetent in firearm safety and usage. That is not going to change, but what can change is telling people that they need to take the responsibility for their own actions and to get some training if at all reasonable under their circumstances (financial and time wise). But to go out there and practice, practice and practice, so that they will be competent and safe in the handling of firearms.

I put this at the end of each and every post I do here and mean every word of it.

STAY SAFE.
Jim

IE:
There are some people who might have great difficulty or who might even find it impossible to spare the money for professional training, however they are in a tiny minority.
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No John, they are the great silent majority, get out and run for public office and you will see what I mean, I have.
 
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The operative words there are "who wishes to receive", most do not.
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That's certainly the truth, however I was responding to your comment that it wouldn't be possible to train everyone. While it wouldn't be possible to train all firearm owners if they all decided to get trained in the next few months, it is certainly possible to get training now, if you want it. The fact that we can't train everyone at once isn't a good argument against people getting training if they want it.
No John, they are the great silent majority...
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In my area, you can get a 4 hour course taught locally for around $100. Ammo might run another $70. Let's call it $200 total for the sake of argument.

Are you really claiming that the majority of people in the U.S. can't save up $200 over, say, the course of a year? That's less than $4 bucks a week. Most folks could do that simply by drinking only water for awhile.
 
Unfortunately, it's quite apparent that most gun owners are as unlikely to seek training with their firearms as they are with their cars.
And don't get me started on that!
 
In the grand scheme, buying a gun for self defense is not as simplified as people often make it out to be and there is a LOT of give and take between options and considerations.

Fit to the hand
Pointability
Size
Weight
Concealability
Reliability
Power
Capacity
Perceived Recoil
Ease of use
Accessibility
Situational Parameters

Then when it comes to practice or training, the cliche saying I have heard numerous times from people about why they don't practice with their carry gun is that "It is meant to be carried a lot and shot a little."
 
"...monthly small gun match..." None of the shooting games are practice for anything. Better than nothing, but they're still just games
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Games can teach you a lot.

I am also in Canada and I have taken and passed the Canadian IPSC Black Badge course which is over 500 rounds in 2 days.
I also participate in CQB, and Precision rifle clinics and matches.

The things you get out of matches and clinics that mimic real world situations are seeing how well your gear is suited for a particular task and shooting and reloading under stress.

We have many people come to CQB courses for the first time with all different types of firearms and gear. By the second day they know if they have an issue with the gear they brought.
I always bring a second pistol and carbine and usually by the second day they are lent out to others who are having issues.

I am fortunate to have a good instructor within driving distance.
It costs $80.00 for a 2 day course taught on a Canadian forces range.

As you can see I still favor the left of the target a little.
Practice, practice, practice.

 
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i read frequently, here and other forums, about the need to get training.

but there seems to be a disconnect.

if i take a math class, i'm told up front what i will be taught and hopefully learn (you don't take a geometry class to learn calculus).

but when you say 'firearm training', that's a pretty broad brush.

what exactly will be taught?

i already know how to safely handle a firearm, how to load, unload, clean, store, aim, hold, squeeze the trigger, and generally hit the target. i have a working knowledge about different types of firearms and how they operate. i've participated in IDPA for about 1-1/2 years and have learned more thru that about shooting on the move, shooting from behind cover, drawing from concealment, reloading on the clock and shooting fast accurately.

so when i see some training opportunity advertised, i wonder what will be taught that i don't already know? it's tough to get answers by reading the ads.

i'm not going to join the police or military, so whatever special skills they learn for running to danger are not likely going to be useful to me as one who's duty is to run to safety.

and then you get into the teaching aspect. who is teaching, what are their qualifications, what kind of results have they seen with other students.

if you want to propound a 'test' that people should be able to pass to demonstrate some level of proficiency, then describe the test. if someone can pass it, they are likely wasting time and space taking a class that teaches them what they already know. you took algebra in HS, you likely did not take it again when you turned 30, as you are assumed to still know it.
 
i read frequently, here and other forums, about the need to get training.

but there seems to be a disconnect.

if i take a math class, i'm told up front what i will be taught and hopefully learn (you don't take a geometry class to learn calculus).

but when you say 'firearm training', that's a pretty broad brush.

what exactly will be taught?

i already know how to safely handle a firearm, how to load, unload, clean, store, aim, hold, squeeze the trigger, and generally hit the target. i have a working knowledge about different types of firearms and how they operate. i've participated in IDPA for about 1-1/2 years and have learned more thru that about shooting on the move, shooting from behind cover, drawing from concealment, reloading on the clock and shooting fast accurately.

so when i see some training opportunity advertised, i wonder what will be taught that i don't already know? it's tough to get answers by reading the ads.

i'm not going to join the police or military, so whatever special skills they learn for running to danger are not likely going to be useful to me as one who's duty is to run to safety.

and then you get into the teaching aspect. who is teaching, what are their qualifications, what kind of results have they seen with other students.

if you want to propound a 'test' that people should be able to pass to demonstrate some level of proficiency, then describe the test. if someone can pass it, they are likely wasting time and space taking a class that teaches them what they already know. you took algebra in HS, you likely did not take it again when you turned 30, as you are assumed to still know it.
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I agree with you.
The problem is also that most people in these forums are the 1% that are actually into firearms and dont't just buy a gun and strap it on thinking that they will be able to use it properly because they play Call of Duty or have watched a movie.
 
1-DAB,
Not sure what you are asking.
Are you inquiring how to tell if an advertised course is worth attending for yourself?
Most training facilities do describe their courses, although maybe not as much as they could.
And there's definitely plenty to learn over and above what you have described as already knowing.
Things like shooting in low light and dark situations, for example.
Or defending your home from intruders.
Or shooting from a car.
Or team techniques, with other family members.
Or long range rifle.
Or modern carbine and shotgun.
And lots more.
Anything sound interesting, yet?
 
few quick examples:

https://www.frontsight.com/Courses.asp

long list of courses one has to wade thru.

2 day course: "Upon completion of this course you will have a fundamental understanding of the defensive use of the handgun. Among the many skills you acquire will be the ability to safely and easily present your weapon from the holster and fire two, sighted shots to the center of a target 5 yards away – all under 1.5 seconds! This course more than satisfies gun handling and marksmanship criteria for a Concealed Weapons Permit." all that for $1000.

let's keep looking...

http://www.gunsite.com/classes/150-defensive-pistol/

"We will cover marksmanship, gun handling and mindset just as done in the 250 course. On day 3 you will put everything together in the indoor and outdoor live fire simulators!" apparently, you have to sign up to get more details... all this for $1125

really? you can't even tell the world what the class will teach students until they sign up?

i'm sure there are more examples if i kept searching.
 
if i take a math class, i'm told up front what i will be taught and hopefully learn (you don't take a geometry class to learn calculus).

but when you say 'firearm training', that's a pretty broad brush.

what exactly will be taught?
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You can read what I teach in my classes at www.corneredcat.com/classes

You can find my resume at www.corneredcat.com/article/introduction/about-the-author

You can find my explanation of why I teach the things I teach all over my blog, and especially at

www.corneredcat.com/ordinary-people
www.corneredcat.com/all-fall-down (Love love love teaching this class!)
www.corneredcat.com/its-not-what-you-think/
www.corneredcat.com/what-does-training-do/

You can also find it in other articles I've written for outside outlets, such as this one:

www.usconcealedcarry.com/why-professional-training/

Here are two course reviews -- both for the same class, but written by different people with different perspectives.

www.melodylauer.com/2015/10/aar-cornered-cat-instructor-development-with-kathy-jackson
www.shootingillustrated.com/articles/2015/11/16/kathy-jacksons-instructor-development-course-review

Most qualified professional trainers leave similar trails of bread crumbs all over the place, available to those who look. If you like what Greg Ellifritz has to say and teaches on his blog, you'd probably enjoy a class from him (and learn a few things while you're there). Claude Werner, of the "Tactical Professor" blog, has some amazing posts and he teaches some excellent classes. Karl Rehn of KR Training has a very flexible, affordable set of classes and he's a heckuva nice guy too. Like Tom Givens of Rangemaster, Karl puts out a newsletter for his students rather than a blog -- and it's full of excellent information. This means you can get a solid idea of what he teaches and why from the things he says in that newsletter, or from reading the articles he recommends to his followers.

You can ask in the Tactics and Training forum here on TFL about any trainer that might interest you, and chances are someone will either post a course review or point you in the right direction or give you a short version of what they learned in class.

You can find a huge collection of course reviews and after-action reports on www.pistol-forum.com

Lots of ways to find out what people are teaching and why they're teaching it and what their students think about the courses they took. :)

Kathy
 
i have and have read your book Kathy. a good read, i'd recommend it.

my point is not so much about my training short comings and what i need to learn, but about the larger picture. the two examples i posted are of very large, well known places. if you don't know much, you might do a search on 'firearm training' and these would appear on the first page of results....and you would be stumped to figure out if the classes met your needs.

your class:

"This class provides 18 hours of classroom and range instruction, taking students from the shooting basics through intermediate skill levels. Discussion topics include how to choose and use holsters for concealed carry; gun safety; the self defense mindset; and legal aspects of using deadly force in self defense. On the range, participants review the basics of defensive handgun work, beginning with the fundamentals of grip, stance, sights and trigger control. Once the fundamentals are covered, students learn to draw from concealment, reload, clear malfunctions, use cover, and shoot while moving. Prospective students must be familiar with their own firearms and be prepared to fire at least 300 rounds during the weekend."

sounds like a fun two days, but I would contend that that description, while longer, is just as vague as what i found above.

contrast that with more specific sounding class description that might say this:

'this class will teach you how to draw from concealment, how to shoot from cover, how to shoot on the move, how to reload quickly and safely, how to avoid shooting non-threats, and at the end of the course the student will shoot the IDPA classifier and be able to shoot at Marksmen level or above'....or something like that. some concrete goals.

ah, what the hell do i know, i'm just a guy with money and time on my hands.
 
1-Dab,

Thank you. :) I'll incorporate your suggestions as I'm working up my new descriptions for the coming year. Deeply appreciated -- because you're right.

Kathy
 
not picking on you Kathy.

i'm looking at this from the point of view of a new gun owner, who likely knows that they need to learn something beyond how to load and pull the trigger, so that they feel confident in using their newly obtained firearm to protect themselves and their family.

i thought i was a good shot, until i started shooting IDPA. i had a lot to learn. both during matches and on my own at the range. somedays i'd shoot 300+ rounds trying different drills to improve my skills. it worked. last shot the classifier as SharpShooter with a VP-9. even won 2 stages last month.

when time and weather permit, i run thru the classifier on my own and record my progress, so i can see where i need to practice more.

imagine you are a 35 year old husband of 2 precious girls. or a wife, either way works. and you have decided that it would be a good idea to get a gun and learn how to use it. what's your next step? likely Google or the clerk at the gun shop. lots of luck.
 
If a persons hand size or strength precludes them from being able to operate a certain type or style of gun.. I can see making a purchase around those limitations but if the gun is just not "easy" or fun to shoot, I would be inclined to train more, learn more and practice more. Some people simply have an unrealistic expectation about what shooting is like and the effort associated with being skilled. My little 112 Wife learned to shoot with a ported taurus ultralite 38. It was loud and very snappy but she shoots it just fine now that she is accustomed to it. She has shot my G23 and always prefers her little 38 and I find no fault in her selection for carry.
 
I'm an NRA certified instructor in basic pistol. I rarely teach a class that is more advanced such as concealed carry. Most of my students come from referrals from local gun stores, former students and a monthly column I write for the local newspaper (gun-friendly publisher).

The majority of my students are new, inexperienced shooters, mostly women. I allow my students to use any of my pistols to take the course. Around 50% show up without a pistol. I Start them on a Ruger SR22 (I have four) and move them to a 9mm such as a G19 by the end of the day, with great success. Of those who come with a pistol that they recently purchased on a recommendation from someone who felt it was the best pistol for them - fully 50% leave with buyers remorse.

I've had students who were so frightened of even picking up a pistol, much less shooting one, leave with the confidence to safely and competently handle and shoot a pistol - at least on the beginner level.

I charge $100 for the full day course at my facility. The materials from the NRA cost me around $14/student including shipping. I have a dwelling for my classrooms and I have overhead expenses. I hire qualified LEO's as assistants that are another expense. I make a little profit and have considered quitting a few times. But, when I see the difference we make in some students in their confidence and ability to safely handle a pistol and how grateful they are for our efforts, it fuels me to keep on teaching those who need it the most.

I took a course from Tom Givens about 2 years ago and one comment he made during a break was that you'll rarely see a firearms instructor at the country club - most aren't wealthy enough to afford it.

I do not favor requiring people to have training to exercise their right to own or carry a firearm. But - I've seen firsthand many times over, how badly many people need at least some basic instruction on the safe and competent use of a pistol. That is their decision to live with. If every person who told me that they or a loved one needed to train with me had followed through - I would be holding full classes every Saturday...

And, note to Kathy - every female prospect that makes contact with me concerning training I direct to your website. More than once I've heard them say that you had them at your home page. Keep up the good work!
 
Posted by BlueTrain:
Someone explain to my why you think hitting a man (it would have to be a man) sized target eight feet away is so difficult?
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I addressed that already in Post #15...fast moving target, unexpected situation, need for extreme speed in the draw, presentation, shooting, and subsequent shots (not to mention recognizing the situation), high stress....


And one is not on a square range where one is facing the backstop. One has to avoid hitting the wrong things and the wrong people.

Didn't say it was "difficult"--said one has to be able to do it. You may think one can learn to drive by riding with a parent, but one cannot learn to defend yourself by watching people shoot at targets.

And by the way, why did you ask about a "man sized target"?
 
BlueTrain said:
Someone explain to my why you think hitting a man (it would have to be a man) sized target eight feet away is so difficult?
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At a Simunitions course, I watched shooters who were much better than me (IPSC Masters and Grandmasters) miss actual men at distances a lot closer than eight feet. It can be a bit trickier than it looks on the range with a target standing there nice and still and not shooting back.
 
I do not favor requiring people to have training to exercise their right to own or carry a firearm. But - I've seen firsthand many times over, how badly many people need at least some basic instruction on the safe and competent use of a pistol. That is their decision to live with. If every person who told me that they or a loved one needed to train with me had followed through - I would be holding full classes every Saturday...
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I have to disagree on the right to carry part. I've seen far too many people taking their CHL test that had no business around a firearm, and were a definite threat to others and themselves. I had a reminder Saturday where a person was taking it next to me at an indoor range. She'd never shot a pistol before. and was standing right next to me at the range and couldn't even load the thing. :eek::eek::eek:

She passed the shooting test.
 
Well, I've seen folks load the magazine with rounds backwards. Seen them shoot the target next to theirs. Seen one shoot down the cable that held the target. Soen one put all the rounds into the bottom of a B-27 from close up.

But should they have the right to carry? Interesting question. Do we let idiots vote? We let idiots run for office.
 
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