Ingenious solution to a nonexistant problem?

[Fishbed77]

dahermit, please show us on the doll where the firing pin block touched you.

Seriously though, there are plenty of new 1911s (including some made by Colt) that are available without a firing pin block, so you have that option if you want it.

 

[TunnelRat]

You're overthinking it. OR rather, you're thinking in the direction of safety. Safety had nothing to do with it.



The impetus for Colt to add the firing pin block to the Government Model (and derivitives) was simply profit. They wanted to keep selling their guns in the state of California.



Consider, for a moment, the history of the times. The military had been and still was using the 1911 since it was adopted in 1911, and the A1 since the upgrade was done in the 20s. NOBODY drops pistols more than GIs in and out of combat. Think of it, tens of thousands of guns, handled by hundreds of thousands of soldiers, sailors, Marines, and Air Force personel, through WWI, WWII, Korea, and Viet Nam, and NEVER ONCE did the military ask for a firing pin safety. Yes, there were a few accidents, but they were very, very rare.



The STATE of California, decided, via the people making and passing the laws at the time, that handguns had to be drop safe, (meaning meet the standards that THEY chose) in order to be sold in California.



So, in order to do that, Colt designed their firing pin block. Other makers followed suit, and today all "modern" designs include some mechanism making them "drop safe". It wasn't done to meet any need for additional safety, it was done to meet an arbitrary government requirement.



The claim of enhanced safety is possibly true, but there are no numbers to back it up. .



Now, of course, I can't speak for Colt, I wasn't there but this is what it looks like to me. Nothing else makes accounts for all the factors, including the timing of the creation of the Series 80.



Note that when California came up with their microstamping requirement, some decades later, several makers simply stopped trying to sell their pistols in California. Thanks to the laws in CA, the pistol market had changed enough over the years that the loss of sales in CA was cheaper than the cost of incorporating the microstamping technology into their product lines.



Sad for the people of CA, though..

Seems as reasonable an answer as any.

Was there a particular event that preceded the drop requirements in CA, or was it a case of "think of the children"?

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[Aguila Blanca]

Seriously though, there are plenty of new 1911s (including some made by Colt) that are available without a firing pin block, so you have that option if you want it.

Unless you happen to live in California.

 

[dahermit]

By the logic of the above:

How many times have you ever fired your gun in self defense as a civilian?

Another non sequitur post.

 

[dahermit]

dahermit, please show us on the doll where the firing pin block touched you.

Seriously though, there are plenty of new 1911s (including some made by Colt) that are available without a firing pin block, so you have that option if you want it.

Another non sequitur post. Another candidate for blocking.

 

[TunnelRat]

I don't really see them as non sequiturs. You're welcome to keep calling them that but there is something about the original post that does come across as seemingly "bothered" by the inclusion of firing pin blocks rather than just curious about why they were developed (at least to some people). If that wasn't your intent fair enough, but that doesn't mean perception isn't a factor. That to me isn't a non sequitur.


P.S.- the Oxford Dictionaries has this for the seventh listing for "run": Be in or cause to be in operation; function or cause to function.

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[T. O'Heir]

"...Accidents in cars..." Rarely happen due to a design or manufacturing flaw. Accidents involving cars are usually caused by operator failure. Mind you, so is dropping your 1911A1.
"...lanyard loops..." Are primarily for use on horse back. And so junior officers and NCO's don't lose their pistol.
"...titanium firing pins to prevent accidental discharges..." Just using a really expensive and difficult to machine material will not prevent anything.

 

[CDW4ME]

I was riding a mt. bike down the sidewalk when the front tire went off the edge of the sidewalk, I jerked it back (over corrected) and splat down I went.
Fell on my side, hurt quite a bit; I'd say my waist was near 4' off the ground when seated.
The Les Baer 1911 on my side was unaffected, thank goodness.

Here is the solution(s) to avoid the "solution to a nonexistant problem", buy a 1911 from a maker that uses a "series 70" type mechanism.
Ruger, Dan Wesson, Les Baer, Ed Brown (off the top of my head) all make series 70 type 1911's.

 

[Mal H]

T. O'Heir - concerning the titanium firing pins, you completely missed the point. It has nothing to do the cost of the material or the difficulty in machining it. It is purely physics in that a Ti firing pin weighs about half of what a standard steel firing pin weighs. Less weight equals less momentum when the firing pin is dropped in a vertical position. Less momentum equates to less indentation of the primer when there is no FP block.

 

[TunnelRat]

T. O'Heir - concerning the titanium firing pins, you completely missed the point. It has nothing to do the cost of the material or the difficulty in machining it. It is purely physics in that a Ti firing pin weighs about half of what a standard steel firing pin weighs. Less weight equals less momentum when the firing pin is dropped in a vertical position. Less momentum equates to less indentation of the primer when there is no FP block.

Doesn't the firing pin also have to overcome the firing pin return spring? It's not a free floating firing pin, right? It's interesting to me that despite that there would be enough momentum to indent a primer to the point of ignition. In combination with a very low mass firing pin I'd think it would be quite unlikely.

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[Mal H]

"Doesn't the firing pin also have to overcome the firing pin return spring?"
Of course, but the spring can't be too strong or you would have iffy ignition in regular operation.

 

[TunnelRat]

Right, but my thought was you'd think that return spring would already rob a firing pin of much of its momentum. I know percentage wise a titanium firing pin is a lot lighter, but how heavy is a standard firing pin to begin with? I guess I really don't have a good sense of how much force is actually required to ignite a primer. Compared to a hammer striking the firing pin or a striker being released from tension I'd naively think a drop would be much less, even with a standard weight firing pin. However, the results of the test are what they are.

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[HiBC]

I don't really buy into the proposed argument about every possible safety device "If it only saves one life"....

I'm fine with original Colt designed SAA's,Win 97 shotguns,etc. William Blake wrote "All attempts at foolproofing are futile. The genius of the fool is infinite"

The FBI agent doing backflips on the dance floor of a whiskey bar ,the one who had his gun fall out of the holster? Yeah,that guy. Dropping it did not fire the gun.Picking the gun up with the old finger on the trigger fired the gun.

I think the "conspiracy theory" behind this is illustrated by the case of Ford Pintos. They had a gasoline tank "bursting into flames " problem. Allegedly,Ford looked at the problem and made the cold decision it would be cheaper to pay liability claims than fix the problem.So it was claimed.

If you drop your gun and it shoots someone,you'd really like to have an "evil corporation" .to blame it on..
I use lightweight triggers in my 1911's. The steel ones are heavier,and have more inertia in a drop. My choice. If I want a titanium firing pin,Brownell has them.

The 1911 has passed the test of time

 

[Bart Noir]

My buddy Billy-Bob watched other dude drop a 1911 right next to BB's foot. On the muzzle. Resulting in a bang but no injuries. This was purely firing pin movement, not a hammer striking it. After that Billy-Bob only uses 1911s with the FPS.

No idea if the firing pin spring was horribly weak but this did happen.

Bart Noir
Who thinks the FPS is a good idea, but doesn't panic if a 1911 is without one.

 

[TunnelRat]

I don't really buy into the proposed argument about every possible safety device "If it only saves one life"....



I'm fine with original Colt designed SAA's,Win 97 shotguns,etc. William Blake wrote "All attempts at foolproofing are futile. The genius of the fool is infinite"



The FBI agent doing backflips on the dance floor of a whiskey bar ,the one who had his gun fall out of the holster? Yeah,that guy. Dropping it did not fire the gun.Picking the gun up with the old finger on the trigger fired the gun.



I think the "conspiracy theory" behind this is illustrated by the case of Ford Pintos. They had a gasoline tank "bursting into flames " problem. Allegedly,Ford looked at the problem and made the cold decision it would be cheaper to pay liability claims than fix the problem.So it was claimed.



If you drop your gun and it shoots someone,you'd really like to have an "evil corporation" .to blame it on..

I use lightweight triggers in my 1911's. The steel ones are heavier,and have more inertia in a drop. My choice. If I want a titanium firing pin,Brownell has them.



The 1911 has passed the test of time

I don't go along with the, "Since it's impossible to make things foolproof what's the point?", line of argument. Absolutely when it comes to firearms the potential risk from misuse by the owner will likely well exceed the risk of true accidents. That doesn't mean I eschew all safety attempts if I determine them to be generally benign to my use of the firearm (and no this isn't akin to agreeing to welding the slide shut, going back to a rather silly strawman mentioned above). Yes that FBI agent still discharged a round. But that firing pin or striker block maybe allowed the situation to get to that point rather than discharging anyway.

I don't find a firing pin block objectionable. SIGs, Berettas, CZs, modern Hi Powers, any number of striker fired pistols, all generally contain firing pin blocks (with some exceptions, I know). Does it make the trigger that bad? Because that's really the main complaint I can think of, as issues due solely to firing pin blocks seem rarer than discharges from dropping. In my opinion (and in my experience when it comes to triggers a lot is opinion) their effect on a smooth trigger press is exaggerated. If someone disagrees fair enough, but I think there's enough disagreement to dispel thei dea that a firing pin block universally results in a bad trigger. They can be cleaned up with smoother parts and a lighter spring if it's really a source of concern.

I've owned Series 80 style 1911s, albeit S&W's incarnation. I may like my Springfield Series 70 more, but that doesn't mean the others had what I'd call "bad" triggers. And as multiple people have pointed out now, since when are they a necessity? For many of us (yes not CA), we have the option to choose one way or the other.

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[dahermit]

My buddy Billy-Bob watched other dude drop a 1911 right next to BB's foot. On the muzzle. Resulting in a bang but no injuries. This was purely firing pin movement, not a hammer striking it. After that Billy-Bob only uses 1911s with the FPS.

No idea if the firing pin spring was horribly weak but this did happen.

Bart Noir
Who thinks the FPS is a good idea, but doesn't panic if a 1911 is without one.

That is an example of "anecdotal evidence" or as it is called where I live, bar room baloney. Unless you can proved some evidence ( a link, etc.), I just do not believe it happened. In my lifetime, I have observed many, many people who just make things up. Can you in the very least explain how the guy standing next to your buddy dropped the gun from the required four feet?

 

[dahermit]

I was riding a mt. bike down the sidewalk when the front tire went off the edge of the sidewalk, I jerked it back (over corrected) and splat down I went.
Fell on my side, hurt quite a bit; I'd say my waist was near 4' off the ground when seated.
The Les Baer 1911 on my side was unaffected, thank goodness.

Here is the solution(s) to avoid the "solution to a nonexistant problem", buy a 1911 from a maker that uses a "series 70" type mechanism.
Ruger, Dan Wesson, Les Baer, Ed Brown (off the top of my head) all make series 70 type 1911's.

Four feet off the ground, plus gun has to be perfectly vertical, plus the "ground" has to be concrete. Also, your anecdote did not result in the gun discharging or harming you, so your story does not mark the ledger as being one in favor of "should have a firing pin safety".

 

[Bart Noir]

It was concrete, and there was an unplanned discharge upon contact (read the post). No, there is no evidence since it was just an oopsie at a range and there were no injuries.

But you need courtroom-grade evidence rather than discussion of our (and our friend's) personal histories with firearms? So why are you paying attention to TFL posts again?

Bart Noir

 

[TunnelRat]

As above, I question where this source of evidence you are requiring is going to be found. What group is scientifically cataloging accidents due to firearms or repeatedly performing controlled experiments? The evidence you yourself present from your own experience is also anecdotal. People can indeed lie. I'm not sure how to get around that one. It might almost seem like instead of holding yourself to a high standard you're setting the bar for evidence so high as to make it impossible for anyone to disprove your assertion.

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[gwpercle]

In the last 50 years , with the seven 1911's I've owned , I've dropped it exactly 0 times.

Same thing goes for my Ruger Blackhawk loaded with 6 rounds ..0 times .

Gary