Ingenious solution to a nonexistant problem?

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dahermit

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How many of you 1911 owners have ever dropped your 1911?

How many of you 1911 owners have ever dropped your 1911 from four feet in the air?

How many of you 1911 owners have ever dropped your 1911 directly on its muzzle?

How many of you 1911 owners have ever dropped your 1911 directly on its muzzle, it fired and the bullet ricocheted back and actually injured or killed you?

Evidently in regard to the necessity for a series 80 firing pin block, that must be a very common occurrence. I cannot understand that inasmuch as I have never dropped any handgun since I started shooting them in the early sixties...from four feet, directly on its muzzle...
 
Only takes it happening one time to someone and the insuing lawsuit results in all of us dealing with the outcome.
And while I hate to admit it, I did drop a gun once. Trying to carry too much it fell from chest height. Sacrificed my foot to break it’s fall.

Jim
 
Well I mean if it hasn't happened to one person, you, then certainly it's never happened at all. By that logic I don't need airbags, safety glasses, or a fire extinguisher since I've never "needed" any of those.

How many modern designs don't include some form of firing pin block? And by modern I'm including designs from the second half of the 20th Century.

I have a series 70 1911 with a titanium firing pin. I don't lose sleep over it, but I don't carry it (not for that reason, but more because there are other options I prefer). In the dozens of pistols I've owned the firing pin block has never been the source of the myriad of issues I've encountered and many of the pistols that had them still had very good triggers or could do so with a quick spring swap. I don't really see the issue other than some companies did a poor job when adding them to a design that didn't have them originally.

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Ok,I'm having to remember from a long time ago,an article in a John T Amber Gun Digest. That might put it late 60's,early 70's.
I recognize I'm fallible,and this could be wrong...but as I recall,that article said (I think) that it would take a drop of 16 feet,landing square on the muzzle,for the firing pin to gather enough inertia to fire.

Once again,I may be wrong about that.

What is the source of the 4 ft drop number?
 
TunnelRat said:
Well I mean if it hasn't happened to one person, you, then certainly it's never happened at all. By that logic I don't need airbags, safety glasses, or a fire extinguisher since I've "needed" any of those.

How many modern designs don't include some form of firing pin block? And by modern I'm including designs from the second half of the 20th Century.

I have a series 70 1911 with a titanium firing pin. I don't lose sleep over it, but I don't carry it (not for that reason, but more because there are other options I prefer). In the dozens of pistols I've owned the firing pin block has never been the source of the myriad of issues I've encountered and many of the pistols that had them still had very good triggers or could do so with a quick spring swap. I don't really see the issue other than some companies did a poor job when adding them to a design that didn't have them originally.

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You seemed to have missed my point...the number of incidents is what is pertinent. Accidents in cars happen frequently . There is abundant proof that seatbelts, air bags save lives. If you want to show that the series 80 firing pin block is a necessity, site the appropriate data (number of incidents wherein a series 70 gun dropped and caused an accident) and I will be convinced.
 
laytonj1 said:
Only takes it happening one time to someone and the insuing lawsuit results in all of us dealing with the outcome.
And while I hate to admit it, I did drop a gun once. Trying to carry too much it fell from chest height. Sacrificed my foot to break it’s fall.

Jim
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By your logic, welding the slide closed would insure it would never happen to anyone.
 
Why does it bother you that much though? What is so objectionable about a firing pin block?

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HiBC said:
Ok,I'm having to remember from a long time ago,an article in a John T Amber Gun Digest. That might put it late 60's,early 70's.
I recognize I'm fallible,and this could be wrong...but as I recall,that article said (I think) that it would take a drop of 16 feet,landing square on the muzzle,for the firing pin to gather enough inertia to fire.

Once again,I may be wrong about that.

What is the source of the 4 ft drop number?
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There was a test posted in another thread on this forum that had the results of drop tests at different heights. The test data indicated that the gun fired when dropped from four feet directly on its muzzle onto concrete. But then it did not take into account that the only time a gun would likely be held up at four feet, is when aiming at arms length...however, the only time I ever do that is when I am firing with two hands and very unlikely to drop the gun.
 
dahermit said:
You seemed to have missed my point...the number of incidents is what is pertinent. Accidents in cars happen frequently . There is abundant proof that seatbelts, air bags save lives. If you want to show that the series 80 firing pin block is a necessity, site the appropriate data (number of incidents wherein a series 70 gun dropped and caused an accident) and I will be convinced.
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Those things happen frequently but my counter is the percentage of the whole is more important than sheer counts. 30,000 or so people die a year in automobile accidents. That sounds very troubling, but we still drive our vehicles because that's a small fraction of the millions of people on the road every day. At the same time we acknowledge the issue and add in safety features to mitigate the risk to an extent.

We have entire agencies that collect data on car accidents, fires, etc. I don't know of any agency cataloging the discharges from dropped 1911s, you're left with anecdotes. The best you're going to get asking here is the subset of people using this forum. But what is that compared to the overall user base? If you poll a small enough group and don't find the issue it's easy to convince yourself it's not an issue. But that doesn't tell you if you didn't find the issue because the group is small or because the issue really is that low in probability.

My point above was in a small sample I've never needed an airbag, nor have many of my closest friends. I could easily think they aren't needed, and on a small enough scale they might not be, but once we start expanding my conclusions would differ.

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dahermit said:
A non sequitur answer.
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So your answer is illogical? Because I wasn't giving an answer, I was asking you an honest question (or making a counter argument).

Who said a Series 80 system actually is a "necessity", going back to the first post? Just the fact that it exists? As best as I can tell plenty of Series 70s are still being sold. Maybe someone felt adding it as an option relieved the concerns of some people.

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Well,I'm not inclined to drop my handguns on concrete just to argue.
Can you link to the test? I'm curious about the details.
 
I can say that MY real USGI 1911 will not fire dropped from six feet onto a vinyl over wood floor in any orientation or condition of readiness.
Other guns?
Three feet on concrete?
 
I know that a number of manufacturers use 9mm titanium firing pins to prevent accidental discharges when dropped. The linked-to results of the drop tests noted by dahermit shows this generally works with 1 discharge in 6 drops from six feet on concrete. Hilton Yam's post at that link points out that this is how several manufacturers pass California, FBI, and other drop tests.

The linked-to drop test does not say how the gun was dropped, though the photo shows the gun hitting the muzzle. The California drop test requires impact in six different positions. https://codes.findlaw.com/ca/penal-code/pen-sect-31900.html. Granted, this is from just over one meter onto concrete, compared to the six feet and higher drops done at the linked-to site. The one meter height is a much more realistic scenario than a six foot drop. I personally think the 9mm titanium firing pin provides realistic and adequate safety.

I have a three Colts and a Sig 1911 with FP safeties. I can tell a noticeable difference in the trigger when compared to my 1911s without a FP safety. It's not really the trigger weight, it's the distinct feel of the block being disengaged when I pull the trigger.

It is simply a personal choice on whether to insist on a 1911 with a FP safety or not. I don't think anybody should be scared away from 1911s without a FP safety, at least those with 9mm titanium firing pins or which otherwise pass government drop safety tests.
 
The drop test experiment was designed to get the 1911 to fire under controlled conditions and they succeeded. The experiment did not however, involve human kinesiology as a factory in determining if a series 70 1911 is likely to fire outside of those controlled conditions. It has been suggested that there is/was no significant data as to how many times such firings occurred outside of those controlled conditions, which begs the question: If there was no data that indicated unintended firings were occuring, what was the impetus for Colt to add the firing pin block to its 1911 style guns. But then again, S&W added that lock to its revolvers to keep supposed unauthorized persons from being able to fire the gun, while at the same time not doing the same with its autos. :rolleyes:
 
It has been suggested that there is/was no significant data as to how many times such firings occurred outside of those controlled conditions, which begs the question: If there was no data that indicated unintended firings were occuring, what was the impetus for Colt to add the firing pin block to its 1911 style guns.
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I'm not sure the people here can speak for Colt, unless they happened to work for Colt when the Series 80 came out (which would be neat to hear). It seems to me if Colt did have data suggesting that the lack of a firing pin block was a problem, it probably wasn't in their interest to share that data (my original point was finding and collecting these stories is not easy, as unlike some other examples here there aren't agencies tasked with collecting this data and people aren't always eager to share stories of accidental discharges).

At some level it becomes a question of liability. What are the potential damages associated with a lawsuit as compared to the cost associated with incorporating the design changes and offering that model as an option? Doing the latter means in the event of a lawsuit Colt could point to the fact that they offered such a model and the buyer chose otherwise.
 
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If there was no data that indicated unintended firings were occuring, what was the impetus for Colt to add the firing pin block to its 1911 style guns.
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You're overthinking it. OR rather, you're thinking in the direction of safety. Safety had nothing to do with it.

The impetus for Colt to add the firing pin block to the Government Model (and derivitives) was simply profit. They wanted to keep selling their guns in the state of California.

Consider, for a moment, the history of the times. The military had been and still was using the 1911 since it was adopted in 1911, and the A1 since the upgrade was done in the 20s. NOBODY drops pistols more than GIs in and out of combat. Think of it, tens of thousands of guns, handled by hundreds of thousands of soldiers, sailors, Marines, and Air Force personel, through WWI, WWII, Korea, and Viet Nam, and NEVER ONCE did the military ask for a firing pin safety. Yes, there were a few accidents, but they were very, very rare.

The STATE of California, decided, via the people making and passing the laws at the time, that handguns had to be drop safe, (meaning meet the standards that THEY chose) in order to be sold in California.

So, in order to do that, Colt designed their firing pin block. Other makers followed suit, and today all "modern" designs include some mechanism making them "drop safe". It wasn't done to meet any need for additional safety, it was done to meet an arbitrary government requirement.

The claim of enhanced safety is possibly true, but there are no numbers to back it up. .

Now, of course, I can't speak for Colt, I wasn't there but this is what it looks like to me. Nothing else makes accounts for all the factors, including the timing of the creation of the Series 80.

Note that when California came up with their microstamping requirement, some decades later, several makers simply stopped trying to sell their pistols in California. Thanks to the laws in CA, the pistol market had changed enough over the years that the loss of sales in CA was cheaper than the cost of incorporating the microstamping technology into their product lines.

Sad for the people of CA, though..
 
They still do make lanyard loops for some pistols, that you could modify the length of said lanyard. Just saying, ya clumsy animals.
 
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