black mamba
New member
Yep, that's the king of the hill. But the one Jack bought is about $150 less, and the only difference is the stainless steel. I can see how that would be a BIG consideration in Alaska, however.
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Info on the 45/70....
- Thread starter jaughtman
- Start date
I'm not sure I see the big recoil advantage of the .444...
Both of these are starting loads from Lee's Modern Reloading 2e using jacketed bullets and H4198 powder:
.444/.45-70
Bullet weight in grains: 240/300
Velocity in fps: 2249/1783
Powder charge in grains: 44/42.7
Weight of firearm in lbs: 7.5/7.5
Recoil Impulse in (lbs sec): 3.18/3.13
Velocity of recoiling firearm (fps): 13.63/13.44
Free Recoil Energy in (ft/lbs): 21.65/21.04
Recoil looks about the same to me. Obviously if you're going for max loads, the .45-70 will kick harder because it can be loaded hotter but nobody says you have to load max loads.
Both of these are starting loads from Lee's Modern Reloading 2e using jacketed bullets and H4198 powder:
.444/.45-70
Bullet weight in grains: 240/300
Velocity in fps: 2249/1783
Powder charge in grains: 44/42.7
Weight of firearm in lbs: 7.5/7.5
Recoil Impulse in (lbs sec): 3.18/3.13
Velocity of recoiling firearm (fps): 13.63/13.44
Free Recoil Energy in (ft/lbs): 21.65/21.04
Recoil looks about the same to me. Obviously if you're going for max loads, the .45-70 will kick harder because it can be loaded hotter but nobody says you have to load max loads.
Today, 08:12 PM #45
ATW525
Senior Member
Join Date: March 14, 2005
Location: Concord, NH
Posts: 2,496
I'm not sure I see the big recoil advantage of the .444...
Both of these are starting loads from Lee's Modern Reloading 2e using jacketed bullets and H4198 powder:
.444/.45-70
Bullet weight in grains: 240/300
Velocity in fps: 2249/1783
Powder charge in grains: 44/42.7
Weight of firearm in lbs: 7.5/7.5
Recoil Impulse in (lbs sec): 3.18/3.13
Velocity of recoiling firearm (fps): 13.63/13.44
Free Recoil Energy in (ft/lbs): 21.65/21.04
Recoil looks about the same to me. Obviously if you're going for max loads, the .45-70 will kick harder because it can be loaded hotter but nobody says you have to load max loads.
__________________
Culling the herds of jackasses is a sporting purpose
As I have noted in a bunch of prior threads, I set my .444 Marlin up with an extra 1.5 pounds of lead in the stock bringing the weight to a bit over 9 pounds. I then added a LimbSaver recoil pad but since they are a bit soft, I covered that with a Kick Killer lace up leather recoil pad. The extra weight doesn't bother me a bit to carry, but it does wonders with the recoil aspect.
If you do the calculations, I am probably at about 18 pounds of felt recoil or less. If feels like my 20 ga, no big deal at all.
On the other hand, lots of folks will state that the recoil is quite a bit less without any modifications as I did. BTW, it feels that way even with the Buffalo Bore 335's at 2025 fps. Not a bad gun to shoot in the least. I much prefer it to my .300 WSM which is a quick and stout punch, this is just a little bit of a slow push. No big deal at all.
Looks like I am at 25.01 pounds of free recoil by an online recoil calculator with a 9.25 pound rifle. Maybe recoil doesn't bother me as much as I thought. If just doesn't seem like it is bad at all. Without the extra weight, it calculates at about 30 pounds of free recoil. The weight makes a big difference and doesn't bother me to carry it.
On the other hand, the 45-70 with Garrett Hammerheads in a 7.5 pound rifle is about 43 pounds of free recoil. No thanks for that kind of abuse. With regular .444 loads, the recoil on the Garrett Hammerheads are essentially twice the recoil of my .444. For me, I have nothing to prove to anyone anymore.
My .444 works just fine. In my younger days, sure, the 45-70 would have been the go to gun, but no need of that today. If you are sold on the 45-70, that is a great gun all kidding aside. It is definitely a thumper for sure which I am not really interested in at this point in my life.
ATW525
Senior Member
Join Date: March 14, 2005
Location: Concord, NH
Posts: 2,496
I'm not sure I see the big recoil advantage of the .444...
Both of these are starting loads from Lee's Modern Reloading 2e using jacketed bullets and H4198 powder:
.444/.45-70
Bullet weight in grains: 240/300
Velocity in fps: 2249/1783
Powder charge in grains: 44/42.7
Weight of firearm in lbs: 7.5/7.5
Recoil Impulse in (lbs sec): 3.18/3.13
Velocity of recoiling firearm (fps): 13.63/13.44
Free Recoil Energy in (ft/lbs): 21.65/21.04
Recoil looks about the same to me. Obviously if you're going for max loads, the .45-70 will kick harder because it can be loaded hotter but nobody says you have to load max loads.
__________________
Culling the herds of jackasses is a sporting purpose
As I have noted in a bunch of prior threads, I set my .444 Marlin up with an extra 1.5 pounds of lead in the stock bringing the weight to a bit over 9 pounds. I then added a LimbSaver recoil pad but since they are a bit soft, I covered that with a Kick Killer lace up leather recoil pad. The extra weight doesn't bother me a bit to carry, but it does wonders with the recoil aspect.
If you do the calculations, I am probably at about 18 pounds of felt recoil or less. If feels like my 20 ga, no big deal at all.
On the other hand, lots of folks will state that the recoil is quite a bit less without any modifications as I did. BTW, it feels that way even with the Buffalo Bore 335's at 2025 fps. Not a bad gun to shoot in the least. I much prefer it to my .300 WSM which is a quick and stout punch, this is just a little bit of a slow push. No big deal at all.
Looks like I am at 25.01 pounds of free recoil by an online recoil calculator with a 9.25 pound rifle. Maybe recoil doesn't bother me as much as I thought. If just doesn't seem like it is bad at all. Without the extra weight, it calculates at about 30 pounds of free recoil. The weight makes a big difference and doesn't bother me to carry it.
On the other hand, the 45-70 with Garrett Hammerheads in a 7.5 pound rifle is about 43 pounds of free recoil. No thanks for that kind of abuse. With regular .444 loads, the recoil on the Garrett Hammerheads are essentially twice the recoil of my .444. For me, I have nothing to prove to anyone anymore.
My .444 works just fine. In my younger days, sure, the 45-70 would have been the go to gun, but no need of that today. If you are sold on the 45-70, that is a great gun all kidding aside. It is definitely a thumper for sure which I am not really interested in at this point in my life.
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I have only two rifles in 45-70, an Italian Sharps copy and a Handi-rifle. I load the Sharps with black powder and use it as conversation fodder at the range.
The Handi I load with a middling charge of 4895 and push a 405 grain cast bullet to about 1300 fps. I've never bench-rested that rifle, but I can keep all the shots in 3" at 100 yards, which is fine for my purposes. I've never scoped that rifle and the front bead subtends about 8" at 100 yards, so the rifle is shooting into the area covered by the front sight. I'm fairly recoil-tolerant, but I've never seen the reason to beat myself up with recoil. If a 405 grain bullet at 1300 fps won't do the job, then I'll step up to a heavier rifle. Even at 1300 fps, that light Handi-rifle has a pretty good punch.
The Handi I load with a middling charge of 4895 and push a 405 grain cast bullet to about 1300 fps. I've never bench-rested that rifle, but I can keep all the shots in 3" at 100 yards, which is fine for my purposes. I've never scoped that rifle and the front bead subtends about 8" at 100 yards, so the rifle is shooting into the area covered by the front sight. I'm fairly recoil-tolerant, but I've never seen the reason to beat myself up with recoil. If a 405 grain bullet at 1300 fps won't do the job, then I'll step up to a heavier rifle. Even at 1300 fps, that light Handi-rifle has a pretty good punch.
If you are not recoil tolerant, you want neither a .45-70 nor a .444 Marlin. There's no way to sugarcoat it, both of these guns KICK. And, with hot modern gun only loads, the .45-70 comes close to maim recoil levels. But, with 300 grain cast bullets and Trailboss powder, the recoil can be pretty reasonable.
Double Naught Spy
New member
You know, about the only time my .45-70 hurts me to shoot it is off sandbags on the bench. Offhand, my shoulder/body move enough to offset much of the recoil pulse and I don't find it unpleasant to shoot at all and certainly not for the purposes of hunting.
Another advantage the 45/70 has is its been around for over 130 years! its been proven on the battlefield,Africa and North America! to KILL ANY ANIMAL!. And since you have alot of powder and bullets weights to chose from you can reload it anywhere from mild,to full strenth,reloading is cheaper then the 444.
Lee McNelly
Moderator
Price
e rifle has got to be a Rolling Block, Sharps, Springfield, High Wall,
not everyone can afford one of the above nor like any of the above for one or more reasons
isn't the thread 45/70
e rifle has got to be a Rolling Block, Sharps, Springfield, High Wall,
not everyone can afford one of the above nor like any of the above for one or more reasons
isn't the thread 45/70
Jimbo-Indy
New member
I too have a 1895 G Guide gun. Shoot 405 gr. Rainier plated lead with "trap door" pressure loads for fun. For bigger thump, go up to 300 gr. Hornady XTP or Nosler partition which will run up around 2200 fps. Barnes makes a 250 gr. TSX hollow point that works well too with faster powders. Some pistol guys refer to their HP bullets as "flying ash trays". Well then the 250 TSX is a flying garbage can. That hollow point cavity is huge! The 45-70 works well with so many powders: H335, H4895, H322, Varget, etc.