Independant Kurdistan Now!

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oldbillthundercheif

Moderator
I'm sick of seeing these fine folks trampled upon. It's been going on for centuries... Turkey, Persia (later Iran), the British, the Shiites and the Sunnis of Iraq and the rest of the Middle East, and the United States have all oppressed, manipulated, betrayed, and generally mistreated this outstanding group of people.

Saddam gassed them and what did we do about it?

We encouraged them to revolt after the Gulf War, then opened up the no-fly-zone so that Saddam could use his attack helicopters to put down the rebellion we had promised to support. After all of this, they deserve better than they are getting and it is going to get a lot worse. One line in Bush's recent "surge" speach made me see red:

"We will work with our Turkish allies to solve the problem on the border"

That "problem" is Kurdistan and the Kurds are our only real friends in all of that damn section of the middle-east. We need to partition the country, give them the northern oil fields and sell them some serious weaponry to keep the Turks, Iranians, and the Sunnis and Shiites of the former Iraq off of their backs. Economic aid also would be good.

The House of Saud has already pledged to support the Sunni regions of Iraq in the event of a partition. Let their fat wallets rebuild the middle of the country, eh? The south could become like Kuwait in a few years with a little British guidance, and Kurdistan could become one of our allies and a regional power with US support...

Why are we so crazy about a unified Iraq? It was never historically one nation until it was colonized by the British and only stayed unified through the strongarm tactics of a world-class dictator. Let's let it split into the three nations that it should be.

What do y'all think? Would this work?
 
Why not go back to the reeeeally ancient maps and call it Mesopotamia? Which evolved into Assyria? Or was it Babylon? Or the Empire of Sargon? Or even Persia?
The regions politics have evolved with the civilizations and I'm sure that someone was always a little put out over it each time. Major problem being of course, they probably didn't have an army capable of backing their desire to go back to the old ways and the new leaders did (have an army and a desire to control, that is).
If one wants to argue a point, one could state that since the Kurd, Shiia and Sunni could not amass a powerful enough organized armed populace, all agreeing internally, to control their own destiny, they were at the mercy (or lack thereof) of someone else more powerful and more organized. A classic example of Might makes Right. Or, as Alexander Pope wrote,
All Nature is but art unknown to thee;
All chance direction, which thou canst not see;
All discord, harmony not understood;
All partial evil, universal good;
And spite of pride, in erring reason's spite,
One truth is clear, Whatever is is right.
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Figure out how to make enough oil or energy with our own resources in the USA. We supposedly have enough coal to make enough fuel for our cars for 250 years.

Then let all those folks pray to Darwin. The only reason we care about those countries is to pay for Chaney's country club membership and so the legacies of the dumb rich can go to fancy schools like GWB did. Bah.
 
I am informed that Turkey would not stand for an independent Kurdistan. They have too many Kurds in Turkey who would want to secede and join Kurdistan.
 
+1 for staying home and taking care of our own business
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I agree, but this angle is no longer an option. We are already over there and we have to do something...

They have too many Kurds in Turkey who would want to secede and join Kurdistan.
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I think the Turks may be more than willing to expell their Kurds into the area formerly known as Northern Iraq. It's a cheaper option than keeping them in concentration camps, which is what they are currently doing. The Turks would whine a lot about an independant Kurdistan... until they realized that all that Northern Iraqi oil would probably flow through their pipelines into their refineries as the southern route would be a no-go with partition. Economic prosperity and an interrelated oil economy would make the two nations considerably less hostile to each other, I think.

With Northern Iraqi oil flowing vigerously through it's ports and pipes, Turkey could also gain some leverage against Russia. This would be outstanding as they would have the bargaining power to prevent the Russians from overexploiting their position as the major petrochemical power of eastern and southeastern Europe.
 
There's an old saying: "You can lead a jackass to water, but you can't make him drink." I think this truly applies to the Middle East.

You cannot help people who don't want your help. It is quite clear from everything we hear on T.V. that the Middle East wants us OUT of their business. They will not stop fighting (us AND each other) until we leave them be.

Now, I also agree that it's a little late to talk about isolationism in the U.S. We're already over there, so we can't just fold up and leave. But, I wouldn't expect ANY quick-fix measure to put us in any better or worse position. Basically, the culture over there is one of violence and hatred toward themselves and their neighbors. Their pointless fighting cannot be stopped.

I applaud everyone in this country who tries to think of a way to achieve peace. But, I just don't see it as an attainable goal.
 
The Kurds would be perfectly willing to accept our help. They have been asking for our help since at least the early 70's and probably well before that.

They are not Arabs. They are not Muslim (mostly). They drink strong booze and still consider us to be their friends after decades (at least) of deception and back-stabbing. Amazing.

You can't lump these folks in with the rest of the cultures of the region. I think they are the only section of Iraqi society that does not want us to leave ASAP, they want to work with us.

We should give them a shot at self-determination.
 
Figure out how to make enough oil or energy with our own resources in the USA.

agree 100%

Im thinking the Kurds are going to split form Iraq sooner or later. They are pretty much self autonomous right now. Turkey left us dangling in the wind so a little dangling wont hurt them. I see the Kurds as a potential ally against Iran. We would probably be making a grave mistake to turn our backs on them.
 
Exactly. A strong and pro-American Kurdistan would be great for our interests in the region.

Hell, if we gave them a few armored divisions of outdated (by our standards) tanks like the M1-A1s along with support vehicles and APCs for mounted infantry... plus maybe a few Cobras, F14s, A-6s, and other "obsolete" aircraft that we are replacing with new gear anyway...

It would give Iran something to think about if they decided to expand their territory.

The only problem I see is training a useful Kurdish military. If we can't even train Iraqi police and military units on a large scale, how would we get the Kurds up and running? They are tough and motivated enough to be excellent soldiers but training would be a big issue here...

Perhaps there are a few retired US military personnel that would be willing to go over and train them? This would be especially helpful if we gave them some of our older systems...

I know at least one that would be happy to help:D
 
Training isn't an issue

The only problem I see is training a useful Kurdish military. If we can't even train Iraqi police and military units on a large scale, how would we get the Kurds up and running? They are tough and motivated enough to be excellent soldiers but training would be a big issue here...
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We've had no problem training the Iraqi Army, Interior Ministry, and police. The problem has been that they use that training to go massacre innocent civilians from the "other" groups. Typically Sunnis, but not always. That's not a training issue, as training can't solve it.

There's good odds that the Kurds would use such training and supplies to defend Kurdistan. They're not playing in the Iraqi civil war now, and are (IMHO) unlikely to start. Kicking out non-Kurds seems to me to be as far as they'd go, and that could (hopefully) be managed well enough to avoid atrocities. But it couldn't be prevented. If we go this route, "ethnic cleansing" will happen. The human cost can be moderated, but the "purification" is a given.

If the Turks don't like it, and they won't, who cares? Without the Soviet Black Sea fleet threatening the Med, Turkey's of no strategic use to us anyway. Maybe if they'd treated their own Kurdish minority better, it wouldn't be a problem. They've made their ethnic bed, and are cordially invited to sleep in it. There's no way they'd be stupid enough to invade Kurdistan, especially if we told them that we'd help the Kurds fight them off. Even if we didn't put a single GI into Kurdistan, Turkey would have about as much luck as the Soviets did in Afganistan.

At least this would get us something out of this monumental screwup. It won't save GWB from being the worst president in the history of the Republic, but at least there'd be one positive outcome to this. Worth the cost? Nope. Better than the dog's breakfast we're being served now? Yup.

Sometimes you've got to take what you can get.

--Shannon
 
I agree that the Kurds have been getting it in the shorts far too long...
In their case, and in the case of Israel, their geography (unchangeable) plays a very key roll.
Saddam gassed them and what did we do about it?
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We invaded Iraq... and executed the dictator who gassed them...

It was apolitcal when the gassing happened... and it is apolitical now... and to hear a lot of the people on the TFL it will never be politcally expedient to go to the aid of our oppressed neighbors...

It was the same in the Revolutionary War, and WWI and WWII and really very bad in the Vietnam War...

Get used to it...oldbillthundercheif, these very self-centered and short-sighted mentalities will never see war as justifiable until the enemy is "at OUR door"... and then it will be too late by a long shot... :(
 
Unfortunately, I am used to it, Pointer.

When we pull out of Iraq, Kurdistan is either going to be resubjugated by the Sunnis or invaded by the Turks with US approval.

"We will work with our Turkish allies to solve the problem on the border."
-Bush

If the Kurds were able to sell enough of their oil before this happened, though, they could arm up and make a real run at independance. Or they could end up fighting the Turks, Sunnis, and a few Shiites in a guerilla conflict for another few hundered years.

If there were more settled Kurdish immigrants in the US right now, there would be more pressure to set up Kurdistan in a position simmilar to Israel. Unfortunately, there are not, so we need to make some noise on their behalf...
 
so we need to make some noise on their behalf...
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I can be noisy... :D
Pass the ammunition... and point out the "target"...

Maybe some of the others will get "froggish"... and jump in... ;)

Does anyone know how to email the President?
Congress is easy enough... but I want to go to the "Man"...
 
You are very welcome.

Anyone else who wants to speak out for the Kurds... please do so.

Nobody else is going to so we have to shake it up on our own on this one.
 
We should split the country into at least three parts, and guarantee their independence indefinitely. Now that we've deposed Saddam I have serious doubts a "unified" Iraq would stay that way without our troops stationed there. At their stage of "civilisation", lacking almost all of the institutions we westerners take for granted, and too weak to enforce the rule of law, democracy is a poor choice of government.
 
...democracy is a poor choice of government.
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Yeah, Yeah, I know... I took it out of original context...

But... just "look" at how it "sounds"! :eek:

So, I ask you... what is a better alternative? :confused:
 
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