Incident in VA over the weekend. Gun owner killed "attacker"
- Thread starter HOKIEHUNTER
- Start date
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
I can't speak to the justification of the actual shooting, but I think it should be pretty obvious to everyone that the shooter made a number of poor decisions that, had they been different, could have avoided the whole situation.
Number one, fighting over insults is stupid. Man up and walk away.
He who is armed has a GREATER responsibility to avoid conflict than he who is not armed.
Number one, fighting over insults is stupid. Man up and walk away.
He who is armed has a GREATER responsibility to avoid conflict than he who is not armed.
coldpointcrossing
New member
If I were on a jury of 1 (thank God I'm not), and I had to decide if this was a justifiable shooting for self defense (thank God I don't have to), then I would choose that it was justifiable. This is based solely on the info given by the OP. No additional info and no changes made in the story.
To consider here, Virginia case law makes a distinction between "justifiable homicide" and "excusable homicide". The first assumes a totally innocent victim attacked by an assailant. The second assumes some previous conflict where the eventual shooter either provoked or aggravated the situation, but attempted to retreat.
Just throwing that out there - I don't presume to know from the OP which this might be.
God bless.
Bob James
Just throwing that out there - I don't presume to know from the OP which this might be.
God bless.
Bob James
HOKIEHUNTER
New member
As I said earlier folks, I was going off of what I heard discussed on talk radio. I did some searching and found what I believe is the story they were referencing:
Some of the details are a little different, but take a look:
http://www.wvec.com/news/Person-shoots-kills-29-year-old-who-threatened-him.html
Also if you read into the comment section, it seems someone familiar with the situation made a couple posts.
Some of the details are a little different, but take a look:
http://www.wvec.com/news/Person-shoots-kills-29-year-old-who-threatened-him.html
Also if you read into the comment section, it seems someone familiar with the situation made a couple posts.
Reading the online news article, and taking the comment by a woman claiming to be a friend of one of the involved females into consideration, it seems as though the attacker had already brandished a knife, and had laid hands on the shooter's friend(s).
I'm not sure how VA defines mayhem, but there was supposedly choking involved, so murder was a possibility, and supposedly keys/cars were stolen or attempted to be stolen, so there was robbery involved. The only remaining requirement for justifiable killing is that the shooter acted under the belief that such force was necessary to save himself/his friend from the above. If their independent accounts given to police, and possible testimony in court, corroborate that he did act under that belief, then I would imagine he (the shooter) would not be charged, or be acquitted. It certainly appears (given the available information) that it was a justified action, assuming our understanding of VA law is correct.
The shooter's decision to leave the gun in the car when he's at the bar might go a long way to show responsibility, whether he was drinking or not. Or it might not even come up.
However, that's a legal discussion, and this is the Tactics & Training forum.
Regarding Tactics, when they saw that this guy was outside in the parking lot, after having an incident already occur, I believe they should have gone back into the bar and called police, wait for police to arrive, and then driven away with no altercation. File a civil restraining order against the attacker the next morning to document the aggression. Everyone goes home in one piece. While some might ride the "one less idiot on the streets" bus, I don't personally know of any one human who has been appointed judge and exocutioner of the free world.
I'm not sure how VA defines mayhem, but there was supposedly choking involved, so murder was a possibility, and supposedly keys/cars were stolen or attempted to be stolen, so there was robbery involved. The only remaining requirement for justifiable killing is that the shooter acted under the belief that such force was necessary to save himself/his friend from the above. If their independent accounts given to police, and possible testimony in court, corroborate that he did act under that belief, then I would imagine he (the shooter) would not be charged, or be acquitted. It certainly appears (given the available information) that it was a justified action, assuming our understanding of VA law is correct.
The shooter's decision to leave the gun in the car when he's at the bar might go a long way to show responsibility, whether he was drinking or not. Or it might not even come up.
However, that's a legal discussion, and this is the Tactics & Training forum.
Regarding Tactics, when they saw that this guy was outside in the parking lot, after having an incident already occur, I believe they should have gone back into the bar and called police, wait for police to arrive, and then driven away with no altercation. File a civil restraining order against the attacker the next morning to document the aggression. Everyone goes home in one piece. While some might ride the "one less idiot on the streets" bus, I don't personally know of any one human who has been appointed judge and exocutioner of the free world.
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
Hmmm, according to the comments from the news link (assuming these are true and correct, which is a huge assumption), here is what happened:
Shooter and female friend (FF1) are in bar having a good time. Shootee and his female friend (FF2) get into a disagreement. Shootee throws FF2 up against a wall and chokes her. Later that night FF1 goes outside and sees FF2 crying and saying that shootee had stolen her car keys and car. Shootee then calls FF2 and says he wants to come back and apologizes. FF2 agrees. Shootee comes back but begins acting like a jerk again. FF1 tries to get FF2 to walk away and shootee gets verbally aggressive with both women. FF1 mouths off to shootee and shootee lays hands on FF1. Shooter intervenes to calm it down.
There is a big gap in the narrative at this point; the very next comment is that shootee returns to the women's car with a knife and starts chasing FF1 around the car with the knife. Shooter sees this and intervenes, shooting the shootee.
The news article has slightly different facts and says that the two men had a fight inside the tavern and that the shootee was kicked out because he had a knife on him. If this is true, then it could show that the shooter knew that the shootee had a deadly weapon when he advanced.
Either way, much better set of facts for the shooter than the first post suggested.
Shooter and female friend (FF1) are in bar having a good time. Shootee and his female friend (FF2) get into a disagreement. Shootee throws FF2 up against a wall and chokes her. Later that night FF1 goes outside and sees FF2 crying and saying that shootee had stolen her car keys and car. Shootee then calls FF2 and says he wants to come back and apologizes. FF2 agrees. Shootee comes back but begins acting like a jerk again. FF1 tries to get FF2 to walk away and shootee gets verbally aggressive with both women. FF1 mouths off to shootee and shootee lays hands on FF1. Shooter intervenes to calm it down.
There is a big gap in the narrative at this point; the very next comment is that shootee returns to the women's car with a knife and starts chasing FF1 around the car with the knife. Shooter sees this and intervenes, shooting the shootee.
The news article has slightly different facts and says that the two men had a fight inside the tavern and that the shootee was kicked out because he had a knife on him. If this is true, then it could show that the shooter knew that the shootee had a deadly weapon when he advanced.
Either way, much better set of facts for the shooter than the first post suggested.
Okay... this one has worked out for me pretty well so I feel that it is time to pass it along.
Whenever I'm confronted at a bar by some drunk being noteably obnoxious, I tell a bartender or a bouncer. It's the same philosophy as filing a report with a police officer to have a record of grievance. I talk about their behavior and give a "just so you know / or just be on the look-out".
It worked out pretty well at a bar concert I went to one night. I made note of a drunken trouble maker to one of the larger bouncers at the club. He had confronted me earlier acting as if he wanted to get into a fight, and I deflected him and asked the bouncer to keep his eyes open. He mouthed off to a trio of other guys right in front of me about 20 minutes later and tried putting one of them in a headlock. All three of these guys turned around and grounded this drunken idiot. I'm armed with a small CCW revolver at this point, so I gain some distance and assess. The last thing I want to do is get into a physical altercation with my gun on me. Once the guy went down, the bouncers came in yelling and pushing. The one I talked to looked right at me and asked if I'd seen anything. I just pointed at the bleeding idot on the ground and shook my head saying, "That's that guy I told about." He nodded his head and told the other bouncers.
No charges were filed and the other guys stopped defending when the drunk went down, so they were out of hot water. Plus having the guy on record as being aggressive helped end the situation with much fewer questions and chaos.
If you see someone acting like a jerk, tell people who may want to know. It could save you down the line or maybe in court.
~LT
Whenever I'm confronted at a bar by some drunk being noteably obnoxious, I tell a bartender or a bouncer. It's the same philosophy as filing a report with a police officer to have a record of grievance. I talk about their behavior and give a "just so you know / or just be on the look-out".
It worked out pretty well at a bar concert I went to one night. I made note of a drunken trouble maker to one of the larger bouncers at the club. He had confronted me earlier acting as if he wanted to get into a fight, and I deflected him and asked the bouncer to keep his eyes open. He mouthed off to a trio of other guys right in front of me about 20 minutes later and tried putting one of them in a headlock. All three of these guys turned around and grounded this drunken idiot. I'm armed with a small CCW revolver at this point, so I gain some distance and assess. The last thing I want to do is get into a physical altercation with my gun on me. Once the guy went down, the bouncers came in yelling and pushing. The one I talked to looked right at me and asked if I'd seen anything. I just pointed at the bleeding idot on the ground and shook my head saying, "That's that guy I told about." He nodded his head and told the other bouncers.
No charges were filed and the other guys stopped defending when the drunk went down, so they were out of hot water. Plus having the guy on record as being aggressive helped end the situation with much fewer questions and chaos.
If you see someone acting like a jerk, tell people who may want to know. It could save you down the line or maybe in court.
~LT
I also used to worry about my wife getting hurt or being in danger when a physical confrontation was unavoidable. I'm not going to draw my gun on an unarmed person unless he's quite large or menacing; call it a lapse in tactical prepardeness if you want; I don't want the headache. I'd rather take home a couple bruised hands than leave with someone's life if I can help it; and I'm pretty confident on that front.
But the worry came when I thought about this happening when my wife was right nearby. If I ever got taken down by a lucky shot, or the guy pulled a weapon, or had a friend that I hadn't seen and I'm other wise engaged, then I've just put her at risk.
Solution? Arm the wife. It brings a lot of comfort to mind knowing that I could get completely whipped and not have to worry about her. She's got three men protecting her at all times: Me, Smith, and Wesson.
Man she looks cute holding a gun.
~LT
But the worry came when I thought about this happening when my wife was right nearby. If I ever got taken down by a lucky shot, or the guy pulled a weapon, or had a friend that I hadn't seen and I'm other wise engaged, then I've just put her at risk.
Solution? Arm the wife. It brings a lot of comfort to mind knowing that I could get completely whipped and not have to worry about her. She's got three men protecting her at all times: Me, Smith, and Wesson.
Man she looks cute holding a gun.
~LT
What retreat law?
Virginia has never had such a law.
If you are in a place you are otherwise allowed to legally be present and have done nothing to provoke an attack you have never had a ‘duty to retreat.’
That is long standing Virginia case law.
That occurs at the trial.
The Commonwealth’s Attorney has the power to drop the case, take it before a grand jury, or simply prosecute.
Because of my pacemaker, the right hit by an "unarmed" person could still kill me, all it would take is for one of my wires or the pacemaker itself to get jostled around, and if the wires get disconnected from my heart, I am dead. Therefore, I consider even an "unarmed" person, who looks like they mean business to be a SERIOUS threat to my safety.
Sorry for the rant, but I believe that the man who pulled and fired his pistol was justified. People think that a few hits or kicks are no big deal, but I would beg to differ. It all depends on the person, and due to my pacemaker I am very biased.
Sorry for the rant, but I believe that the man who pulled and fired his pistol was justified. People think that a few hits or kicks are no big deal, but I would beg to differ. It all depends on the person, and due to my pacemaker I am very biased.
Law students always get hit with the 'man with the eggshell skull' at some point.
Tort defendants must “take their victims as they find them” is sometimes referred to as the eggshell skull principle or doctrine (or thin-skull rule).
If you strike the man with the eggshell skull and kill him you can be held responsible for the death of the person.
The man's predisposition does not alleviate you of the responsibility for the outcome of you actions.
I have MS and any serious injury can trigger an exacerbation that will do some random damage in my CNS.
Blind is not uncommon (and I have had visual deficits repeatedly over the years that have not been permanent yet).
I know MS folks who DO have permanent visual defects.
I am not going to get in a physical fight that could injure me.
Tort defendants must “take their victims as they find them” is sometimes referred to as the eggshell skull principle or doctrine (or thin-skull rule).
If you strike the man with the eggshell skull and kill him you can be held responsible for the death of the person.
The man's predisposition does not alleviate you of the responsibility for the outcome of you actions.
I have MS and any serious injury can trigger an exacerbation that will do some random damage in my CNS.
Blind is not uncommon (and I have had visual deficits repeatedly over the years that have not been permanent yet).
I know MS folks who DO have permanent visual defects.
I am not going to get in a physical fight that could injure me.
First of all, this is a classic example of why I have avoided bars for the last 20 years or so. I seldom go into one on my own and nowadays it's usually one in a restaurant or casino.
I've seen some pretty hairy things go on in bars and some scary dudes. In my misguided youth, during a barfight my girl and I tried to leave when a guy about 6'5" confronted us. I hit him squarely on the jaw - with a glass beer mug which shattered. After he shook his head he said "I that all you got?"
My girl went forward saying "Gee, are you alright?" just before she kicked a field goal with his testicles. 
(I almost married her.)
Now, WRT the case at hand. There seems to be some disparity in the story as we're getting the information. What isn't in dispute is that there was an altercation between the shooter and shootee, apparently over his treatment/comments to some women present.
Good shoot or not? Good (90% probability)
The shootee showed a violent nature in the bar and was ejected. He then decided to "lay in wait" for his victim - likely to exact some retribution for being ejected from the bar. The shootee was not deterred by a verbal warning nor the sight of a gun pointed at him. He continued to approach the shooter in what we might call a rude, angry or threatening manner.
On the shooter's side, he has several witnesses that agree with his accounts or whose statements support his allegations.
Undisclosed information might turn this case around, of course.
I've seen some pretty hairy things go on in bars and some scary dudes. In my misguided youth, during a barfight my girl and I tried to leave when a guy about 6'5" confronted us. I hit him squarely on the jaw - with a glass beer mug which shattered. After he shook his head he said "I that all you got?"
My girl went forward saying "Gee, are you alright?" just before she kicked a field goal with his testicles. (I almost married her.) Now, WRT the case at hand. There seems to be some disparity in the story as we're getting the information. What isn't in dispute is that there was an altercation between the shooter and shootee, apparently over his treatment/comments to some women present.
Good shoot or not? Good (90% probability)
The shootee showed a violent nature in the bar and was ejected. He then decided to "lay in wait" for his victim - likely to exact some retribution for being ejected from the bar. The shootee was not deterred by a verbal warning nor the sight of a gun pointed at him. He continued to approach the shooter in what we might call a rude, angry or threatening manner.
On the shooter's side, he has several witnesses that agree with his accounts or whose statements support his allegations.
Undisclosed information might turn this case around, of course.
I dont know how many of you have been in or seen some fights recently but ill tell you this, there is no such thing as a fair fight anymore, its either you vs three of their friends or they pull out a bat, a knife or a brick they find on the ground. In most cases I will try to fight off the attacker with my fists before drawing my gun. But there are certain guys that I am familiar with that will kick you in the head when your on the ground unti'll you are not moving anymore. I personally know someone that after they were knocked out from a fight, the other guy was smashing his face into a sidewalk and he needed facial reconstruction surgery. When it comes down to it people got no class or morals anymore, the days of getting in a fist fight and shaking the other guys hand after are over.