In exchange for your manhood. Moral chaos in Central Park

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Glamdring noted:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>He expects women to RELY on men for protection.[/quote]

Well, yeah. Why should I RELY on a male stranger for protection? Someone who thinks like EAF is as likely to come along as one who thinks like Mr. Peirce. I'm supposed to bet my life on the courage and goodwill of a stranger, merely because I'm female?

I don't think so.

As for what EAF said, it's reprehensible. I hope, sir, if you ever do turn your back on a bleeding individual, that you will not be able to live with yourself afterward. Thus dies a civilized society.

Note I didn't say EAF's position wasn't understandable. After what happened with Bernie Goetz, it's obvious that the state of NY has a vested interest in discouraging people from stopping even murderers.

Mark this well: that a person with the means to protect a fellow human being would instead walk away without a qualm and feel justified in doing so does not speak well for what's left of our civilization.

pax

"The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise." -- Tacitus

[This message has been edited by pax (edited July 09, 2000).]
 
The Pierce article is what I have been waiting for the 'leadership' of this country, the pundits, the clergymen, and the media to address. That they seem to have had nothing to say tells me all I need to know. Obviously something about the truth frightens them.

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Dear Friends,

I was deeply moved by this article, and (heat shields up) think it was exactly, positively, right on the money.

To those of you who think it is sexist, please notice that the author is not preaching to women, except in the concluding section, where he also preaches to everyone else. He is just preaching to his fellow man.

I remember that after the largest year of PromiseKeepers, the women's rights groups were up in arms. It seems they interpreted the message to be, "Women, you need to be subjugated." Actually the message was, "Men, you need to act like men rather than like couch potatoes."

I identify myself as one of the kind of men the author describes. I do go around armed, and unlike EAF, I would step up to defend anyone being victimized by violent criminals. And I know there are many men (and women) who would do the same for my wife and kids in my absence.

I am not part of the WWII generation, or even the Baby Boomers. I am 30 years old. But I understand my part in this society, my responsibility to defend and mantain it. I do not shirk from it, and I certainly do not call it sexist.

JP

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Nehemiah 4:18 " ... and each of the builders wore his sword at his side as he worked."
 
Sorry, but I tend to agree with EAF....I won't take a bullet for anyone except immediate family....I would only render assistance by dialing 911...then slip back into the shadows. The Age of Chivalry has long past....unfortunately, replaced by the Age of Litigation. Say what you will....about everyman for himself....but until the pendulum swings back the other way....I will keep my own counsel...and choose my friends very carefully.
 
Old habits die hard.

I'm afraid I'd have donned my rusty Sir Galahad suit and gone to help the women. Slap me on the snout and call me old-fashioned.

It simply boils down to a matter of self-respect. I simply am not constructed in a fashion which allows me to walk away from a woman in serious danger. *shrug*

I think it's the spine. It won't allow me to ooze away. Yes, it will probably get me sued or killed some day. Bummer. At least I'll be able to walk into the Afterlife with my head held up.

LawDog
 
When I lived in NYC, this was an old trick to get help. When you called in on an incident like the Central Park one or a fight, you told the dispatcher that you think some off-duty cop tried to break it up and was knocked down and stomped.

This generates an exciting response.

Sad but otherwise, response time can be slow.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cpt. John Park:
To those of you who think it is sexist, please notice that the author is not preaching to women, except in the concluding section, where he also preaches to everyone else. He is just preaching to his fellow man.[/quote]
Well see his statement: "There were no men of character in evidence, period, and some of those women, maybe most of them, had supported gun control as well as this political correctness vapor that insists upon sensitivity to minorities in lieu of the respect that comes from mutual acceptance of accountability." Blames women for gun control in that area. And also blames women for the "political correctness vapor" that led to the lack of moral brave men [his arguement]. If he was not being sexist he would have used a word like mankind,people, or voters but he chose instead to lay the blame for what he is calling bad/evil on women. Try this substitute "black" or "hispanic" for "women" in his comments and see if that sounds racist to you then?
"Women, you need to be subjugated." Actually the message was, "Men, you need to act like men rather than like couch potatoes."[/QUOTE]
His statement "all the men in the community, are obliged to defend the women and children of that community." Is also sexist [but closer to what I personally agree with] if he means that women are not expected to defend women and children but men are.

I have stopped attacks against women twice with no weapons. And I know what I would have done if I had been there at Central Park armed or unarmed. Because I have to live with myself.
 
Lawdog noted, in part:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>It simply boils down to a matter of self-respect. I simply am not constructed in a fashion which allows me to walk away from a woman in serious danger. *shrug*[/quote]

That is as it should be -- unless you meant that you are constructed in such a fashion which would allow you to walk away from a man being attacked.

I for one could not live with myself if I left anyone, male or female, to be beaten or killed when I had the means to prevent it.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
I think it's the spine. It won't allow me to ooze away. Yes, it will probably get me sued or killed some day. Bummer. At least I'll be able to walk into the Afterlife with my head held up.[/quote]

And an honor escort into Valhalla. :)

pax

"Expecting the world to treat you fairly because you are a good person is a little like expecting the bull not to attack you because you are a vegetarian." -- Dennis Wholey
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>That is as it should be -- unless you meant that you are constructed in such a fashion which would allow you to walk away from a man being attacked.[/quote]

If the two sides in a guy-on-guy fight are relatively equal in skills, mass, and/or weapons, I usually just observe. Two guys going at it in a knife fight--I'm going to be able to ID the winner and call an ambulance for the loser. Same with empty hands, or any other weapon.

LawDog

[This message has been edited by LawDog (edited July 10, 2000).]
 
Its not lack of spine....its prudence. Statistics indicate that in many cases third parties who interfere and attempt to break up a fight usually come out the worst.
LawDog....how many domestic disputes are broken up by LEO's...only to have the combatants attack the responding officers?
 
Mr.X...you seem to be mixing points. [[correct me if I'm mistaken, no offense intended.]]

A domestic dispute vs. several guy raping someone in a public park. Hmmm...seems to me there are some differences. Domestic-call the LEO's-unless the husband or wife is being thrown thru a window or beaten with a brick. [[sorry, that NYC thing popping up again. :D ]] Someone getting raped or something in the streets? Do what the hell you wish-the rest of us will do the same and I see the general concensus is...
 
How many of those who advocate intervention in the Central Park situation have had their asses beaten and stomped by a large group of thugs?
 
Satanta....yes maybe I was mixing metaphors....ie..domestic vs large group of thugs. Still...I think one would be pretty powerless against a large group..as was the husband of the French tourist who had her clothes ripped off in Central Park. As I understand it..he did try to save his wife...but was held back by several of the thugs...and could only watch in horror. And who knows...given the mood of the crowd...if the Frenchmen had been more aggressive..they might have stomped him to death.
 
Well 15 to 1 odds are not good. But initiative is worth a lot. And in my personal experiance few people are willing/able to face a determined opponent with no warning.

A gang of rapist are not very likely to be brave as indiviuals IMHO. If you counter attack them violently even hand to hand most of them will scatter...at least you should draw their attention away from the victums.

YMMV
 
Good Evening Everyone-

This is an extremely interesting thread...

With this in mind, I believe that Mr. X, HeadHunter, and EAF offer the most realistic response to a frightening, horrific event. We're still going under the assumption that the victims are complete strangers, right?

Las Vegas oddsmakers would tell you that these same victims would not do the same for you if the shoe were on the other foot...

Glamdring writes:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>A gang of rapist are not very likely to be brave as indiviuals IMHO. If you counter attack them violently even hand to hand most of them will scatter...at least you should draw their attention away from the victums.[/quote]

The video images from the 11:00 O'Clock News showed us huge throngs of drunk, high, "no-concept-of-consequences", angry, young thugs who would just as soon kill you as look at you. These punks weren't on their way home from church choir practice when "opportunity" presented itself.

This situation demanded more than one or two "honorable people" waving Glocks, Spydercos, baseball bats, or fists. This situation required a majority of people who refuse to be victims in conjunction with an overwhelming, armed, counterforce with powers of arrest to restore law and order.

A gallant person serves the "Greater Good" by calling 9-1-1 to obtain sufficient help and then concentrates as best as he/she can to memorize physical characteristics, clothing, shouted names, and everything else that can be used as evidence.

Having a headstone that reads, "HERO -- AGAINST ALL ODDS" doesn't help anyone.

Attack me or my family? Hell hath no fury like Blue Jays unleashed, but until that time, the pistol stays holstered and I will do my best to help those in need.

Regards to all,

~ Blue Jays ~
 
I guess I don't understand something here.

It appears the messages I'm reading are saying,

"If you get involved, you're probably going to regret it, sooner or later."

"If you don't get involved, you're a sleaze dog."

"Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead".

"Wait a minute, the LEO, or something, will be along any time here."


I wonder, how many women were present at this function? I haven't seen but one short video of after the incident. I can only deduce that there were a multitude of women there at the incident. I don't understand why the women, and men there din't run these turds into the sewers from whence they came.
Geez, how many people can these scumbags realistically hope to ward off?

But nobody does a damn thing in this capacity, and why the hell not?
That's the question I'm trying to find an answer for!
They were acting as a gang, and it worked. It always works!
But there were X-times as many people there who wasn't part of that gang, they were the gang, if you want to compare numbers of strength. What the hell is up here?

Best Regards,
Don


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The most foolish mistake we could make would be to allow the subjected people to carry arms;
History shows that all conquerers who have allowed their subjected people to carry arms have prepared their own fall.
Adolf Hitler
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"Corrupt the young, get them away from religion. Get them interested in sex. Make them superficial, and destroy their rugged- ness.
Get control of all means of publicity, and thereby get the peoples' mind off their government by focusing their attention on athletics, sexy books and plays, and other trivialities.
Divide the people into hostile groups by constantly harping on controversial matters of no importance."

Vladimir Ilich Lenin, former leader of USSR
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Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.

John F. Kennedy
 
Good Evening Don,

We're in complete agreement. The difference here is that the Sewer Turds cannot project even a few hours into the future. Their decisions are instantaneous, extremely selfish, and oftentimes brutal.

You, me, and decent, law-abiding TFL members weigh our decisions and reflect on how what we do will impact others.

In one disturbing interview I watched on television, a journalist asked a young inner-city boy what he wanted to do when he grew up.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The boy responded, "I want to drive a Mercedes Benz!"

Journalist: "Have you given thought to a college or what you're going to do for a job to buy the Mercedes?"

Boy: "College? Are you kidding? That is a chump's way to make money. My friends make more than the college boys. Besides, I only have a few years to drive the Mercedes around."

Journalist: "Why, what happens in a few years. Will you get out of selling drugs?"

Boy: "I'll probably get killed..."[/quote]

Sheesh... This is the mindset that we're upgainst, friends.

Regards,

~ Blue Jays ~
 
Mr X, statiscally speaking a large percentage of domestics result in the parties attacking the officers. I'll show you my scars sometime.

However, even though we know it's going to happen, we still go in. Everytime.

Much like, even though I know I'd probably get hammered, I'd still go into the crowd to pull the critters off a woman.

It's the same instincts at work.

LawDog
 
Lawdog....I don't know whether its a Lawdog thing.....or a Texas thing.....but even though you are paid to serve and protect....what would it take for you to realize you are outgunned...or outnumbered...and just hunker down and wait for backup? How do YOU differenciate between foolhardiness and effective police tactics?
 
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