Importance of sights in self defense

I've also heard Mas comment that he'd heard much the same thing over the years, meaning that cops who were successful in prevailing in shooting incidents seemed to involve a high percentage of people who reported aiming their shots and getting hits.
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I think there is some misunderstanding here as to what "unsighted" shooting is, and what "aiming" is. Youre still aiming, just that the focus may not be heavy on the sights, and/or in a traditional manner.

You can get good hits, using different aiming methods, even some that many dont consider "aiming", even though your brain recognizes that you in fact are. Your brain sees "everything" when you shoot, not just the sights. It registers those other indexes as well, and can use them to make things work, whether you realize it or not. Like anything else though, there is a learning curve. You have to show your brain what works.

I think its a normal response to danger, to focus on the target, especially at closer distances. If youve practiced shooting with that focus on the target, youre still aiming, whether or not consciously, and will still get good hits.


I do think that point shooting is a useful skill to have in the toolbox to use when it is not possible, or unreasonable to use the sights--sort of a contingency option to bring out when it's needed. Unfortunately, from what I see at the range, it looks like very few people practice enough to maintain a useful point-shooting skill level. In fact, it's not that common to find ranges that will allow people to practice point-shooting with live fire.
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I agree.

Even if youre lucky enough to shoot somewhere where you can actually practice anything but slow fire bullseye shooting, you really dont see many doing much beyond that. Be it point/unsighted shooting, drawing from the holster as they normally carry their gun, moving while shooting, etc.

As with anything, if you hope to get good, and then maintain that, you need to practice.
 
There was an incident about 1980 in Nyack NY That opened the eyes of many people - to reality . No longer were matches just for fun. We always heard shooters say " front sight, front sight " as a reminder . Sometimes in combat matches Cirillo was laughed at since he played them as he would on the street I wonder if the laughers knew Cirillo's record on the street.
There was a study of officers who had been in shootings . The ones who shot
best clearly remembered seeing the front sight !
The draw and shoot from the hip also was mostly myth . Yes it's a little faster but using the sights DOUBLED the hit probability !!
 
Shooting reflexively is not the same as shooting from the hip. Your options also aren't "only use sights" or "never use sights". There's a balance that needs to exist in this conversation.

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Shooting reflexively is not the same as shooting from the hip. Your options also aren't "only use sights" or "never use sights". There's a balance that needs to exist in this conversation.
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For the WIN!!!!

I tell my students “see what you need to see, for the shot at hand”.

As the shot gets harder (more precise) put more focus on the sights. A center chest shot at 7-10 FEET just look over the gun. A center chest shot at 5-7 YARDS, look thru the sights. A head shot at 7-10 YARDS...FOCUS ON THE FRONT SIGHT

Trigger control is more important then sights at realistic defensive ranges.
 
For me I see reflexive shooting as an option if I'm in a close engagement and my pistol isn't already out. I need to get into the fight quickly and depending on the range to and actions of the person I'm shooting at I may well shoot reflexively. Now that doesn't mean that if the fight continues due to my shots not having the effect I want or missing that I'm going to continue shooting reflexively simply because I started that way and I'm too stubborn to change. Fights evolve and I should evolve with them. There are also forms of reflexive shooting that Sharkbite touched on above. Whether from my side from retention, one handed, or at a full extension where I might look over or through my sights depending on how close up to my eyes I move the pistol. You could spend a week going over the nuances.

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You could spend a week going over the nuances.
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And thats why shooting schools exist. To teach the GUNFIGHTING skills to survive deadly force encounters.

This is not something to try to figure out on your own. Avail yourself of the professional trainers experience and expertise.
 
A gunfight? If someone runs up to you threatening you with a weapon you won't use your sights, you will point and shoot. If you have time to line up your sights you have time to avoid the gunfight. Gun sights are for target practice which allows you to engage your muscle memory. That's what is needed in an immediate defensive situation.
A gun which would be used for a "bump in the night" situation should have a laser sight.
 
MoArk Willy said:
A gunfight? If someone runs up to you threatening you with a weapon you won't use your sights, you will point and shoot. If you have time to line up your sights you have time to avoid the gunfight. Gun sights are for target practice which allows you to engage your muscle memory. That's what is needed in an immediate defensive situation.
A gun which would be used for a "bump in the night" situation should have a laser sight.
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You must be incredibly fast if you can run completely away from an encounter in the tenths of a second more that it takes to go from a pistol at a position to shoot reflexively to up to your eyes completely.

To me it doesn't make sense to say using sights in target practice is for muscle memory to shoot reflexively. To use the sights as you mention you have to bring them up to your eyes. If you're doing that in an actual engagement then you might as well use the sights. If you want to shoot reflexively well then practice that specifically. Also practice using those sights too as the engagement distance isn't a given.

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If someone runs up to you threatening you with a weapon you won't use your sights, you will point and shoot.
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LOTS of gunfight survivors that say otherwise.

A study of actual shootings, shows the fallacy of that statement. The issue is TRAINING. Those that have trained extensively in dynamic pistol use and then been forced to use those skill show an overwhelming tendency towards sighted fire

The challenge is always balancing the need for sights with the speed of a close range encounter. Training at speed up close using a gross body index AND using sights for more precision shooting needs to balanced.
 
Sights are useless - until they're not.

There is no universal answer to the question. How far is the target? How quickly is it closing the distance to you? Has the target already drawn a weapon? How many targets are there? The answer to these questions - and maybe a hundred more unique to the particular scenario you are in - will determine whether aimed fire is even practical.

If you are awakened in the middle of the night by an armed intruder in a 12 foot wide bedroom, whether you are even going to be able to see well enough to acquire a sight picture, let alone aim, is problematic. And it is clearly a different scenario from three thugs coming onto your farm to menace you in broad daylight.
 
Nobody uses sights in a gunfight."

"You won't have time to see your sights; looking at them could get you killed."

"If he's far enough away that you need sights, then it'll never hold up in court."

These are things I've either read or been told over the last few months when discussions about "the best sights" have come up.

The "law" of "3 shots, 3 seconds, 3 yards" is often cited. So the usual conclusion given is that sights don't matter, night sights are a waste of money, and lasers or red dots are just gimmicky party tricks.

Of course not everyone feels that way. What do you guys think? If you have done anything at all to improve your sights, from painting the front orange to running an RMR, what led you to that decision?

ps: What often comes up too are figures about the hit/miss rates of police in gunfights, and these are usually dismissed as irrelevant to CCW because we aren't kicking in doors, and we won't likely be robbed from 15 yards away.
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I consider this post to substantially unrealistic in the way it is currently presented. I would recommend that the OP at least qualify each of these "proclamations" with some conceptual commentary and perhaps explain how he managed to develop these rather naïve sounding opinions.
 
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Greg Morrison on the flash sight picture (Morrison, Gregory, The Modern Technique of the Pistol, Gunsite Press, 1991, pp 87 - 88, emphasis added):
...The flash sight-picture involves a glimpse of the sight-picture sufficient to confirm alignment....The target shooter’s gaze at the front sight has proven inappropriate for the bulk of pistol fighting. However, the practical shooter must start at this level and work up to the flash, which becomes reflexive as motor skills are refined. With practice, a consistent firing platform and firing stroke align the sights effortlessly. This index to the target eventually becomes an instantaneous confirmation of the sight-picture.

...Using the flash sight-picture programs the reflex of aligning the weapon’s sights with the target instantly....There is good reason for sights: one needs them to align the barrel with the target reliably....
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The Modern Technique wasn't just "plucked from thin air." It evolved from competitions held in in Big Bear Lake, California by the Southwest Combat Pistol League. The competitions were based on courses of fire which attempted to represent real life situations and thus test methods of effectively using a pistol for self defense. Leaders in the competitions included Jeff Cooper, Jack Weaver, Ray Chapman, Elden Carl, Thell Reed, John Plähn, Bruce Nelson (designer of the "Summer Special" holster) and Michael Harries (who developed the the Harries Technique of using a flashlight with a gun).

While Thell Reed was noted for point shooting "fast draw" exhibitions, he was thoroughly grounded in the Modern Technique as well. He did a lot of gun coaching for the movies. Here he's training actor Michael Rooker with a 1911. Note that he tell Rooker (at about 0.13), "Focus on the front sight...."
 
Using a laser/light combo is a huge must for a nightstand gun as said already. Trying to hold a light and gun limits your extra hand and shooting at what you can't see is a terrible idea.
 
IIRC, Jim Cirillo, I met at an IALEFI annual conference. He had set up a short course of fire, his targets had features, weapons on them (not real weapons)
but illustrated ones. Bad guy with a knife, handgun, a man in coveralls gripping a large spanner (Wrench) he asked me if I wanted to shoot it, his course of fire. (I was on the Board and doing safety checks) it was lunchtime.

Borrowed safety glasses, ear muffs, and off I went.

He said I was the only person to shoot the mechanic? Two rounds centre chest.

I saw the wrench as a weapon! Not right, not wrong, just perception.

I had used hand-held weapons in fights and had them used against me.
Been stabbed twice also. A big wrench looked dangerous to me.
 
Using a laser/light combo is a huge must for a nightstand gun as said already. Trying to hold a light and gun limits your extra hand and shooting at what you can't see is a terrible idea.
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This very much depends upon your living situation. Using a gun light to clear a home means that you are pointing a gun everywhere you are looking. This has the potential to get tragic quickly in a high stress situation if you get startled. There are better options out there.
 
Wrong, get some low light training from a reputable instructor.
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Awww, you care. That is so nice. I have had a bit of training and I actually clear buildings at night several times a week. Haven't shot anyone yet by accident over the years despite finding people on occasion unexpectedly. But I have seen a bit of tragedy from other people shooting people that they did not mean too.
 
MTT TL said:
I have had a bit of training and I actually clear buildings at night several times a week.
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And yet you continue to spout that old myth? :confused:

But I have seen a bit of tragedy from other people shooting people that they did not mean too.
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In most of those cases it involved someone shooting at a shape without a light.
 
If you're using a weapon mounted light to search you need to use the spill of the beam, not the beam directly. With weapon mounted lights putting out close to 1000 lumens now the spill can illuminate a lot. That said if you do want to have a handheld to minimize that risk there's nothing wrong with having both. Use the handheld as your primary search light and use the weapon mounted if you actually end up in a fight. There is something to be said for having a hand free and for being able to use two hands while shooting.

We should be careful of thread drift though.

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