I'm gonna order this beauty
- Thread starter A10mmguy
- Start date
Blackhorse
New member
Nice looking gun.
RogerC,
That thing is sex on a stick, but two things would make me hesitate: A) I really just don't dig the new lockwork unless there's no way to get the same gun with the old-style stuff (my 296Ti, f'rinstance) and B) The price differential would pay for a whole buttload of custom work on a 681: I'm betting I could get the cylinder set up for moon clips, send the bbl to Mag-Na-Port, trigger job, bead blast, and still have maybe enough left over for a trick Big Dot front sight... Hmmm... Durn it, now I'm all fired up about a new project idea...
That thing is sex on a stick, but two things would make me hesitate: A) I really just don't dig the new lockwork unless there's no way to get the same gun with the old-style stuff (my 296Ti, f'rinstance) and B) The price differential would pay for a whole buttload of custom work on a 681: I'm betting I could get the cylinder set up for moon clips, send the bbl to Mag-Na-Port, trigger job, bead blast, and still have maybe enough left over for a trick Big Dot front sight... Hmmm... Durn it, now I'm all fired up about a new project idea...
Tamara,
You're probably right, but....... a guy can lay down the cash and take one home "ready to rock" instead of sending the gun off to have work done....and waiting, and waiting, and waiting.......
I have handled two of the PC 681's at my local gun haunt, and I was quite inpressed. The new one was $675 and a real nice used one was $500. I kick myself for not jumping on the used one!
You're probably right, but....... a guy can lay down the cash and take one home "ready to rock" instead of sending the gun off to have work done....and waiting, and waiting, and waiting.......
I have handled two of the PC 681's at my local gun haunt, and I was quite inpressed. The new one was $675 and a real nice used one was $500. I kick myself for not jumping on the used one!
Don't get hung up about the lockwork. It is a well discussed topic that involves the argument over MIM parts. Some people are leary of MIM (metal injection molding) parts. I have yet to hear any documented cases of problems....
Here is a post from Herb Belin, a Smith and Wesson employee, regarding the subject"
And I quote him:
"I have read with much interest the many comments in this forum pertaining to MIM, MIM Parts and the use of same in a S&W product. So far I have come away with several impressions and they are "people in general don't like/trust MIM parts" and "no one has said why" I will take a stab at this issue and see where it goes.
As background to our decision to use MIM in some areas of our Mfg Process we took a long hard look at our "Life Time Service Policy". It was clear to us that any change in any of our products such as the use of MIM components had to show equivalent or better performance and durability to those components that were being replaced or the "Lifetime Service" would haunt us forever. The second consideration was to determine if the change was too radical a departure from S&W mainstream design.
For the performance and durability issues we decided that if MIM could be used for the fabrication of revolver hammers and triggers succesfully this would truly be an "Acid Test". There is nothing more important to a revolvers feel than the all important Single Action Sear that is established between the hammer and the trigger. Mechanicaly few places in a revolver work harder than at the point where the hammer and trigger bear against each other. If these surfaces wear or loose there "edge" the "feel" is lost. Initial testing was on these two critical parts. Over time we arrived at a point where our best shooters could not tell the difference between a revolver with the old style hammer and trigger and the new MIM components. Special attention was given to their endurance when used in our very light Magnum J frames such as the early prototype 340 & 360 Sc's. None of our revolvers work their components harder than these small magnum revolvers. Throughout this testing MIM held strong and finally we determined that this change judged on the basis of durability and feel was a good one.
The second area of concern to S&W was our customers reaction to this departure from the traditional. Many heated, intense discussions resulted but in the end the decision was made to move ahead with MIM.
The issue of cost was only one of the considerations in making this decision. Equally as important was the issue of part to part uniformity and the result of this of course is Revolver to Revolver consistancy. We found that revolvers that used MIM hammers and triggers required almost no Fitter intervention in those areas during final assembly and final inspection and Trigger Pull Monitor rejection rates dropped markedly on finished guns. From an internal process point of view it appeared a "Winner".
Lets shift gears for a moment and talk about the MIM process. It is unclear to me as to the reason for many of the negative feelings on the forum concerning MIM. Typically when people complain and aren't specific in the reason why, the problem is often created by a departure from the "Traditional". Perhaps that is indeed what is bothering some people when they view MIM.
The term MIM stands fo Metal Injection Molding. It holds some similaritys to Plastic Injection Molding and many differences as well. To start we would take a finally divided metal powder. This could be stainless or carbon steel. Today even Titanium is being used in some MIM fabrications. We would mix the metal powder and a thermoplastic binder (generally a Wax) forming a slurry of sorts when heated and inject this mix into a precision mold and finally form what is known as a"Green Part". This part is roughly 30% larger than the finished part it will become at the end of the process. Interestingly enough the Green Part at this stage can be snaped in two with simple finger pressure. The Green Parts are then placed in a Sintering furnace filled with dry Hydrogen gas and the temperature is brought almost to the melting point of the metal being used. Over time the "Wax" in the Green Part is evaporated, the metal fuses and the part shrinks 30% to it's final correct dimensions. At this stage of the process the MIM part has developed 98 to 99%of the density of the older wrought materials and a metalurgy that is almost identical. Dimensionaly it is finished and no machining is required. However the job is not yet done and the MIM parts are brought to our Heat Treat facility for hardening and in the case of Hammers and Triggers, Case Hardening. Depending on the particular metal alloy that was used at the start of the process we apply a heat treat process that is the same as would be used if the material was the older wrought style. Final hardness, Case thickness and core hardness are for the most part identical to parts manufactured the older way.
Lets look for a moment at how we acheive dimensional precision when comparing these 2 processes. The old parts were each machined from either bar stock or a forging. Each cut and every resulting dimension was subject to machine variations, Cutter wear, operator variations etc. If every operation was done exactly right each and every time and the cutter didn't let you down you would have produced a good part but sometimes this didnt happen resulting in a rejected gun and rework or in the worst case an unhappy customer. With MIM parts you must still machine to very high tolerances and your cutters have to be perfect and your machinist has to be highly qualified but all of this only has to come together one time. That time is when the injection mold is made. Typically a mold for this process costs S&W between 30,000 and 50,000 dollars. Once it is perfect every part it makes mirrors this perfection and you have in my view a wonderful manufacturing process.
Hopefully this description will help us all better understand the MIM process.
Please forgive the spelling errors and missplaced puncuation. I have no spell checker on this and the phone continues to ring!
Have a Great Weekend,
Herb
Additional Point.
Currently S&W is paying about $1.20/Lb for stainless steel barstock. Raw MIM stainless steel injectable material costs $10.00/Lb."
End quote.
Sorry for the length, but I think it is very informative.
RogerC
Here is a post from Herb Belin, a Smith and Wesson employee, regarding the subject"
And I quote him:
"I have read with much interest the many comments in this forum pertaining to MIM, MIM Parts and the use of same in a S&W product. So far I have come away with several impressions and they are "people in general don't like/trust MIM parts" and "no one has said why" I will take a stab at this issue and see where it goes.
As background to our decision to use MIM in some areas of our Mfg Process we took a long hard look at our "Life Time Service Policy". It was clear to us that any change in any of our products such as the use of MIM components had to show equivalent or better performance and durability to those components that were being replaced or the "Lifetime Service" would haunt us forever. The second consideration was to determine if the change was too radical a departure from S&W mainstream design.
For the performance and durability issues we decided that if MIM could be used for the fabrication of revolver hammers and triggers succesfully this would truly be an "Acid Test". There is nothing more important to a revolvers feel than the all important Single Action Sear that is established between the hammer and the trigger. Mechanicaly few places in a revolver work harder than at the point where the hammer and trigger bear against each other. If these surfaces wear or loose there "edge" the "feel" is lost. Initial testing was on these two critical parts. Over time we arrived at a point where our best shooters could not tell the difference between a revolver with the old style hammer and trigger and the new MIM components. Special attention was given to their endurance when used in our very light Magnum J frames such as the early prototype 340 & 360 Sc's. None of our revolvers work their components harder than these small magnum revolvers. Throughout this testing MIM held strong and finally we determined that this change judged on the basis of durability and feel was a good one.
The second area of concern to S&W was our customers reaction to this departure from the traditional. Many heated, intense discussions resulted but in the end the decision was made to move ahead with MIM.
The issue of cost was only one of the considerations in making this decision. Equally as important was the issue of part to part uniformity and the result of this of course is Revolver to Revolver consistancy. We found that revolvers that used MIM hammers and triggers required almost no Fitter intervention in those areas during final assembly and final inspection and Trigger Pull Monitor rejection rates dropped markedly on finished guns. From an internal process point of view it appeared a "Winner".
Lets shift gears for a moment and talk about the MIM process. It is unclear to me as to the reason for many of the negative feelings on the forum concerning MIM. Typically when people complain and aren't specific in the reason why, the problem is often created by a departure from the "Traditional". Perhaps that is indeed what is bothering some people when they view MIM.
The term MIM stands fo Metal Injection Molding. It holds some similaritys to Plastic Injection Molding and many differences as well. To start we would take a finally divided metal powder. This could be stainless or carbon steel. Today even Titanium is being used in some MIM fabrications. We would mix the metal powder and a thermoplastic binder (generally a Wax) forming a slurry of sorts when heated and inject this mix into a precision mold and finally form what is known as a"Green Part". This part is roughly 30% larger than the finished part it will become at the end of the process. Interestingly enough the Green Part at this stage can be snaped in two with simple finger pressure. The Green Parts are then placed in a Sintering furnace filled with dry Hydrogen gas and the temperature is brought almost to the melting point of the metal being used. Over time the "Wax" in the Green Part is evaporated, the metal fuses and the part shrinks 30% to it's final correct dimensions. At this stage of the process the MIM part has developed 98 to 99%of the density of the older wrought materials and a metalurgy that is almost identical. Dimensionaly it is finished and no machining is required. However the job is not yet done and the MIM parts are brought to our Heat Treat facility for hardening and in the case of Hammers and Triggers, Case Hardening. Depending on the particular metal alloy that was used at the start of the process we apply a heat treat process that is the same as would be used if the material was the older wrought style. Final hardness, Case thickness and core hardness are for the most part identical to parts manufactured the older way.
Lets look for a moment at how we acheive dimensional precision when comparing these 2 processes. The old parts were each machined from either bar stock or a forging. Each cut and every resulting dimension was subject to machine variations, Cutter wear, operator variations etc. If every operation was done exactly right each and every time and the cutter didn't let you down you would have produced a good part but sometimes this didnt happen resulting in a rejected gun and rework or in the worst case an unhappy customer. With MIM parts you must still machine to very high tolerances and your cutters have to be perfect and your machinist has to be highly qualified but all of this only has to come together one time. That time is when the injection mold is made. Typically a mold for this process costs S&W between 30,000 and 50,000 dollars. Once it is perfect every part it makes mirrors this perfection and you have in my view a wonderful manufacturing process.
Hopefully this description will help us all better understand the MIM process.
Please forgive the spelling errors and missplaced puncuation. I have no spell checker on this and the phone continues to ring!
Have a Great Weekend,
Herb
Additional Point.
Currently S&W is paying about $1.20/Lb for stainless steel barstock. Raw MIM stainless steel injectable material costs $10.00/Lb."
End quote.
Sorry for the length, but I think it is very informative.
RogerC
7 shot revolvers have a different "feel" to the action. The lock-time is shorter than on a 6 shooter. Repeat shots can be VERY quick, with practice.
The grips on these guns are great looking and are very concealable. They feel good in the hand too!
With the 3 inch barrel it will have excellent balance.
For years I thought Smith and Wesson should have made 686's with 3 inch pipes.
The grips on these guns are great looking and are very concealable. They feel good in the hand too!
With the 3 inch barrel it will have excellent balance.
For years I thought Smith and Wesson should have made 686's with 3 inch pipes.
A10mmguy,
There's nothing really wrong with the frame-mounted pin & etc., I just don't like it from an aesthetic standpoint, myself. I've always associated it with Brand X revolvers (Taurus, Ruger, newer Colts, Rossi, what have you). It's not really a dealbreaker from a functional standpoint at all.
There's nothing really wrong with the frame-mounted pin & etc., I just don't like it from an aesthetic standpoint, myself. I've always associated it with Brand X revolvers (Taurus, Ruger, newer Colts, Rossi, what have you). It's not really a dealbreaker from a functional standpoint at all.
Tamara,
I can dig it!
It is sad that a part of what could be called "old world craftsmanship" is no longer there.
Yes, there is something sexy about the hammer mounted pins.
But the quality is still high, and hell, it IS 2002. Lot's of technology has "happened" in the last 20 years.
That's for sure. I've got digital cable with 4 Golf channels!!
........................................................................
This baby begs to be shot!
Imagine the flames when shooting Magnum 125 grain Federals!!!!
I can dig it!
It is sad that a part of what could be called "old world craftsmanship" is no longer there.
Yes, there is something sexy about the hammer mounted pins.
But the quality is still high, and hell, it IS 2002. Lot's of technology has "happened" in the last 20 years.
That's for sure. I've got digital cable with 4 Golf channels!!
........................................................................
This baby begs to be shot!
Imagine the flames when shooting Magnum 125 grain Federals!!!!
Last edited:
A10mmguy...
What a coincidence!
I handled one of these at my local dealer last night and I was taken with it also! But the one I saw seemed to have a slightly more subdued finish, was not as bright as the one in the pics. But it has an AWESOME feel. I am sorely tempted.
I take it that if you are Camfour that you are somewhere in New England?
What a coincidence!
I handled one of these at my local dealer last night and I was taken with it also! But the one I saw seemed to have a slightly more subdued finish, was not as bright as the one in the pics. But it has an AWESOME feel. I am sorely tempted.
I take it that if you are Camfour that you are somewhere in New England?