Sounds like you probably have a newer barrel, so shoot jacketed if you choose and don't worry about it....pressure is your only real concern, not barrel wear. It's hard to know your barrel twist, so you might be able to shoot lighter bullets, but the 405's are a good middle of the road weight for one of them. I have shot them for years and still do occasionally and have found that IMR 3031 works nicely in that caliber for the pressure levels you need.
I'm buying a Springfield Trapdoor Model 1884. What should I know?
- Thread starter ckpj99
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Jim Watson
New member
The barrel may not be original, but it has a Buffington rear sight.
So it is probably still a period Trapdoor barrel and should be spared the wear of jacketed bullets.
ETA: I don't crimp .38-55 and .40-65 for my single shots. I think/hope the residual flare acts to center the round in the chamber. But I am loading black powder which doesn't need any resistance to get well ignited. YMMV with white powder.
So it is probably still a period Trapdoor barrel and should be spared the wear of jacketed bullets.
ETA: I don't crimp .38-55 and .40-65 for my single shots. I think/hope the residual flare acts to center the round in the chamber. But I am loading black powder which doesn't need any resistance to get well ignited. YMMV with white powder.
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3031 should be fine, I worked with it in .45-70 loads a while back.
No need to REGULARLY trim straight-walled .45-70 brass, just check length every 20 or 30 firings (in those light loads) & trim if necessary.
Light pressures won't stretch the brass much.
Even if re-barreled, unlikely to be a modern barrel, more likely to be a period (as in still old) replacement & advice against jacketed bullets still holds.
Why would you even want to shoot jacketed anyway, if you're going to reload?
Brass is easily found, same with lead bullets from a number of sources.
Jacketed, in a plinker, or even a hunter, won't gain you anything in that rifle & jacketed's more expensive.
Denis
No need to REGULARLY trim straight-walled .45-70 brass, just check length every 20 or 30 firings (in those light loads) & trim if necessary.
Light pressures won't stretch the brass much.
Even if re-barreled, unlikely to be a modern barrel, more likely to be a period (as in still old) replacement & advice against jacketed bullets still holds.
Why would you even want to shoot jacketed anyway, if you're going to reload?
Brass is easily found, same with lead bullets from a number of sources.
Jacketed, in a plinker, or even a hunter, won't gain you anything in that rifle & jacketed's more expensive.
Denis
Thanks for all the help folks. I do have one more question. I'm looking at the lead bullets available online because I am definitely not going to start casting my own. I'm generally finding three types.
1) Hard cast lead with gas checks - I'm ruling these out because it seems silly to pay a premium for gas checks when I'm running the bullets so slow.
2) Hard cast lead - it seems that the majority of bullets available are hard cast lead with a Brinell hardness ranging from 15-18. These bullet are plentiful and affordable, but if I'm trying to get the best accuracy and preserve the rifling, are these bullets too hard? Here's what I'm looking to buy - http://www.midwayusa.com/product/79...-diameter-405-grain-lead-flat-nose-box-of-250
3) Softer cast lead - there are a range of bullets that seem to made specifically for making black powder loads that use softer lead and a SPG lube. These have a Brinell hardness of about 9. I would think these would fill out the rifling better and be less hard on the barrel, however, I'm not loading black powder. Here's an example - http://www.midwayusa.com/product/75...-spg-lubricant-box-of-50?cm_vc=ProductFinding
So should I go with #2 or #3?
1) Hard cast lead with gas checks - I'm ruling these out because it seems silly to pay a premium for gas checks when I'm running the bullets so slow.
2) Hard cast lead - it seems that the majority of bullets available are hard cast lead with a Brinell hardness ranging from 15-18. These bullet are plentiful and affordable, but if I'm trying to get the best accuracy and preserve the rifling, are these bullets too hard? Here's what I'm looking to buy - http://www.midwayusa.com/product/79...-diameter-405-grain-lead-flat-nose-box-of-250
3) Softer cast lead - there are a range of bullets that seem to made specifically for making black powder loads that use softer lead and a SPG lube. These have a Brinell hardness of about 9. I would think these would fill out the rifling better and be less hard on the barrel, however, I'm not loading black powder. Here's an example - http://www.midwayusa.com/product/75...-spg-lubricant-box-of-50?cm_vc=ProductFinding
So should I go with #2 or #3?
Jim W - I actually have a question about that Buffington rear sight. Since the gun has a globe front sight and I can easily have a high post. I was thinking about doing a duel range set up on the gun. Zeroing the Buffington for 50 yards or 100 yards, then using the peep for longer ranges. However, there's so many damn knobs on the sight, I can't quite figure it out and I don't want to start loosing things that shouldn't be loosened.
#1 - So this knob is for adjusting the elevation when the sight is flipped up. I got this one.
However, what do the other three knobs/screws do? How do you adjust the windage?
#1 - So this knob is for adjusting the elevation when the sight is flipped up. I got this one.
However, what do the other three knobs/screws do? How do you adjust the windage?
Jim Watson
New member
Screws 3 is a mounting screw, leave it alone if tight. Not sure about 4, so leave it alone, too.
Screw 2 is windage. It swings the whole sight around a pivot point under 4, reading on the scale at the rear. Note that the scale is in "points" of windage, about 4 MOA per graduation.
If hard cast bullets are not a perfect fit - a couple of thou over groove diameter - they will lead worse than anything at low velocity. I'd get the softer ones as large as they would supply; Trapdoor barrels run a bit large.
We tend to lump all the 2.1" cases together these days, but .45-70 Gov't is not exactly the same as .45-70 Winchester or .45-75 Sharps.
Screw 2 is windage. It swings the whole sight around a pivot point under 4, reading on the scale at the rear. Note that the scale is in "points" of windage, about 4 MOA per graduation.
If hard cast bullets are not a perfect fit - a couple of thou over groove diameter - they will lead worse than anything at low velocity. I'd get the softer ones as large as they would supply; Trapdoor barrels run a bit large.
We tend to lump all the 2.1" cases together these days, but .45-70 Gov't is not exactly the same as .45-70 Winchester or .45-75 Sharps.
I think the windage adjustment is in infantry mils, like the M1905 sight. The latter has been called the worst sight ever put on a battle rifle, but the Buffington sight (its ancestor) comes close. Both came out of an era when target shooters ruled the roost at the Ordnance Department and sights were designed to hit stationary black bullseyes on bright, sunny rifle ranges. When the Army found that five aiming points and tiny sight notches didn't work when the enemy was wearing field gray and the fog and smoke of places like Belleau Woods made their sights a joke, the lesson was learned and never again did the Army adopt such monstrosities for battle sights.
Jim
Jim
As an owner of several original trapdoors in 45-70 and 50-70, I would never consider shooting anything through the bores but pure lead bullets. To further upset some of you, I would never use any powder other than Black.
These guns were designed to shoot black powder and soft lead bullets. Why run the risk of damaging such heirlooms? These rifles are also more accurate with soft lead and black powder.
These guns were designed to shoot black powder and soft lead bullets. Why run the risk of damaging such heirlooms? These rifles are also more accurate with soft lead and black powder.
chiefr - while I hear what you're saying, it's just so impractical. Soft lead bullets are expensive and hard to source. I can't justify the investment for casting my own. Barrel leading is a serious problem, especially if your barrel has slight pitting like mine. Not to mention that black powder is filthy.
I shoot antique BP cart rifles at least once a week at my local range.
You can buy soft lead bullets for about the same price as alloyed: Check GunBroker for sellers. In all my years of shooting BP cartridge rifles, I have never had a leading problem.
BP cartridge reloading is time consuming, but not difficult. There are books out there you can buy to familiarize you with the methods. Drop tubes, grease cookies, wads, compression plugs, milk jugs full of water and dish soap are some of the tools of the trade.
If you want to shoot smokeless thru your antique rifle, I wont stop you as I believe in individual rights and personal freedom.
I will say these rifles were designed for very low pressures, while smokeless was designed for very high pressures. There are plenty of accounts of trapdoor kabooms when smokeless is used as a substitute for black not vice versa.
IIRC one of the other reasons why one should not shoot smokeless through a BP rifle is higher burning temperatures. Properly lubricated lead bullets do not leave that much residue. The smell of black powder-like Hoppe's No. 9, it is an acquired taste. Cleaning BP residue ? So many different ways, the only difference between it and smokeless is that BP should be cleaned off ASAP.
So here's an update on where I'm at with the gun. I actually shot it today.
I order "Sharps" style inserts for the globe front sight. They're not correct either. That being said, I was able to modify them with a Dremel to get them to work, and they don't shake around. There's only one other style of insert of Track of the Wolf, so I may eventually buy those, but for now, I'm just using these other one.
I have all my reloading gear together or ordered. I took the box of 20 Remington jacketed bullets I bought and pulled the bullets for the brass. I also purchased two boxes of Ultramax 405gr lead "cowboy" loads. They're advertised to run at 1050 fps, which is lower than any "trapdoor safe" reload I found, so I'm not worried about overpressure. I most bought them to zero gun and get some brass.
I tried the gun out at 50 yards today. The tang peep doesn't work at that distance with the Ultramax loads. Even with the sight bottomed out, it was shooting very high, probably 8" or so.
The Buffington sight worked like a charm. I used a standard post insert for the globe front sight, and the notch at the bottom of the "Christmas tree" on the sight. I made a adjustments to get the elevation on and I was good to go. The gun is shooting a bit to the right, so I need to adjust the windage, but that adjustment on my sight is very stiff so I didn't want to crank on it at the range too hard.
For this target I was benched, and I just held off a little to the left.
About a 1.5" group center to center, which I think is pretty good for factory ammo from a brand not known for its precision.
This next target was also shot at 50 yards, but I was standing, unsupported. For this, just keeping the extremely heavy gun up was hard enough, so I just *tried* to hold right on the target, which is why the shots are further off the right.
This group is about 2.25 inch.
I order "Sharps" style inserts for the globe front sight. They're not correct either. That being said, I was able to modify them with a Dremel to get them to work, and they don't shake around. There's only one other style of insert of Track of the Wolf, so I may eventually buy those, but for now, I'm just using these other one.
I have all my reloading gear together or ordered. I took the box of 20 Remington jacketed bullets I bought and pulled the bullets for the brass. I also purchased two boxes of Ultramax 405gr lead "cowboy" loads. They're advertised to run at 1050 fps, which is lower than any "trapdoor safe" reload I found, so I'm not worried about overpressure. I most bought them to zero gun and get some brass.
I tried the gun out at 50 yards today. The tang peep doesn't work at that distance with the Ultramax loads. Even with the sight bottomed out, it was shooting very high, probably 8" or so.
The Buffington sight worked like a charm. I used a standard post insert for the globe front sight, and the notch at the bottom of the "Christmas tree" on the sight. I made a adjustments to get the elevation on and I was good to go. The gun is shooting a bit to the right, so I need to adjust the windage, but that adjustment on my sight is very stiff so I didn't want to crank on it at the range too hard.
For this target I was benched, and I just held off a little to the left.
About a 1.5" group center to center, which I think is pretty good for factory ammo from a brand not known for its precision.
This next target was also shot at 50 yards, but I was standing, unsupported. For this, just keeping the extremely heavy gun up was hard enough, so I just *tried* to hold right on the target, which is why the shots are further off the right.
This group is about 2.25 inch.
Jim Watson
New member
Good start.
Show pictures of the front sight before buying more inserts at random.
Show pictures of the front sight before buying more inserts at random.